The Enrage Nerf

XI- · 01/23/06, 11:02 AM

I was disappointed at first, and every day I spend PvPing on my warrior it continuously baffles me why they nerfed enrage. I'm wondering what some of your thoughts are now that we've had a little time to digest it.

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?498973

That's my pvp character. Basically 100% geared from PvP, although I've taken him to ZG once or twice. But at this point if you completely geared a character from ZG/PvP, up to rank 11, I can't feasibly kill anyone with similar gear and skill in a 1v1 scenario. The only way I'm going to kill someone is if 1. They're an idiot, 2. I have a long period of time to work said idiot over.

This isn't even touching on the fact that to rank up in PvP on my server, you basically have to solo for honor, and to compete you need to be able to burst someone out in the shortest amount of time possible, to get the most CP.

I'm sure someone like gurg, or slug will post a long and eloquent response that will cover the point much better than I can.

♦ Praetorian · 01/23/06, 11:09 AM

Neither long nor eloquent, but two thoughts:

1) Is doing 125% damage for a few attacks after a crit instead of 140% actually making that much of a difference? Are people consistently escaping at 10% health, or are you dying with your opponent close to death as well, often?

2) Unfortunately the Enrage nerf was a bandaid for a scaling problem, and your warrior is below the threshold at which scaling became a concern, so you really feel the nerf. A warrior with that character's gear is balanced: high-level blues and something like a TUF, which is solid but not significantly above blue gear.

The Enrage nerf was designed to stop warriors with epic PvP armor or full raiding DPS plate (Drake Talon, Flameguards, Onslaught, Endless Rage, Chromatic Boots, etc.) and a 75+ DPS 2h, from getting crit once and then destroying a whole group with a single whirlwind. I'm sure you've seen the Pat videos (though a lot of the flashy numbers were from the buggy 31/21 spec period).

I'll leave it to an actual PvP warrior to comment further.

subscience · 01/23/06, 11:14 AM

The Enrage nerf in itself was bad, but not entirely crippling.

However, the Warrior is a much, much weaker class in a 1v1 situation than it was a few months ago due to compounding nerfs. The Enrage change coupled with the instant attack changes, Sweeping Strikes changes, Sword Spec changes, etc. have made the Warrior a very weak solo class.

They're still a decent group PvP class with good support, but not nearly as dominating as they once were. But it was a bit ridiculous to be Enraged nearly 100% of the time in group combat. Also, the SS'ed Execute needed to go as well.

Eh, I don't know. I might just make this Warrior a PvE character and roll a Hunter for PvP.

Edit - Removed some off-topic stuff. Anyway, you shouldn't expect to excel in PvP without support. Without support, you're an easily snareable, kiteable, CCable target that has lower priority than a Mage, healer, or Hunter.

subscience · 01/23/06, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 23rd, 2006 @ 11:09AM

2) Unfortunately the Enrage nerf was a bandaid for a scaling problem, and your warrior is below the threshold at which scaling became a concern, so you really feel the nerf. A warrior with that character's gear is balanced: high-level blues and something like a TUF, which is solid but not significantly above blue gear.

Caster scaling (specifically Mages, but all casters apply, really) is far more noticeable and scales up quite significantly past a certain threshold than Warriors do (well, at least comparing my Mages to this Warrior), I feel. Particularly when you factor in those two trinkets.

♦ Praetorian · 01/23/06, 11:31 AM

The trinkets are the retarded part. I cannot believe they put in the ZHC after seeing how ToEP worked, and then put them on separate cooldowns. It seems so retardedly out of sync with their other PvP-related decisions.

On the one hand, Blizzard makes it seem like they don't want people doing too much burst damage. That makes a lot of sense to me. One-shot PvP isn't fun. So we saw rogue/warrior normalization. The enrage changes. The changes to CoS/CoE and negative resists to prevent ridiculous -100% vuln crit one-shots. Makes sense, right?

And then, on the other hand, they actively have given casters the ability to instakill people every couple of minutes. So many shitty mages out there relying on their cooldowns these days.

But anyway, yeah, the points above about warriors are correct. Also, bear in mind that I think warriors were never really overpowered in 1v1, regardless of gear. The problem was in group PvP, which is what the game is really designed around anyway. Warriors are still good in group PvP, but they've definitely suffered a lot in 1v1.

(PS: For comedy, just say "normalization" to a hunter who has a Ashjre'thul and watch the expletives fly.)

• Wodin · 01/23/06, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by subscience,January 23rd, 2006 @ 11:22AM

Caster scaling (specifically Mages, but all casters apply, really) is far more noticeable and scales up quite significantly past a certain threshold than Warriors do (well, at least comparing my Mages to this Warrior), I feel. Particularly when you factor in those two trinkets.

I've actually noticed this as well. When I originally rolled Zappy he was just an argument for the fact that caster gear scaled and that using only +dmg gear would be effective . He transitioned into my pvp character, and while my skill quotient is probably mediocre at best relative to a good mage(I suck at kiting, as Appleseed can attest), he's been a lot more fun. However, when I hit about Rank 8 I realized that PvP gear alone wasn't going to be enough. Queues weren't rapid enough to get me decent weapons, and the "best blues" set for a mage is pretty mediocre for PvP since it lacks damage. I found, however, that supplementing my gear with a few ZG/MC epics(ZHC, Mageblade, Gloves of Hypnotic Flame, mage set bracers, and Bloodlord pants) gave my character enough of a boost that I went from crappy gear to mediocre gear, and PvP was fun again.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a successful high-rank warrior that didn't have a PvE epic weapon. There are some very skilled ones who have pvp gear and are somewhat effective, but the weapon seems to make much more difference for the blue-geared warriors than rogues.

Edit: Gurgthock is absolutely correct with regards to hunter normalization. Having seen the exact chain of events play out(AP factored into ambush/backstab is roughly comparable to delinking the autoshot timer from aimed shot) it's interesting to know what's coming and not be able to effectively communicate it.

subscience · 01/23/06, 11:50 AM

I never found non-MC/ZG/BWL blues / craftable epics for Mages lacking. At my peak of non-raiding items, my average Fireball hit was around 1,000 and my Fire critical rate was ~28%.

Once a Mage realizes that stamina and intellect are secondary stats is when your damage really begins to soar. Stamina really isn't all that important for a kiting class, in my humble opinion.

I had 2980 HP, roughly 5100 MP, +200ish damage, and a 28% Fire critical rate and I dominated all levels of PvP (all e-wang flexing aside). The only thing that really screwed me was Fire Resist, but stacking more +damage and +crit% pretty much negates a lot of resists. I'm probably one of the few Fire Mages that thought Fire Resist was balanced back before they introduced spell penetration.

Edit- But Asthrejul Aimed Shot on my Mage:

. :blink:

Edit 2- And I've had a Pyroblast 1 shot me before. Not pretty.

XI- · 01/23/06, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 23rd, 2006 @ 11:09AM

Neither long nor eloquent, but two thoughts:

1) Is doing 125% damage for a few attacks after a crit instead of 140% actually making that much of a difference? Are people consistently escaping at 10% health, or are you dying with your opponent close to death as well, often?

2) Unfortunately the Enrage nerf was a bandaid for a scaling problem, and your warrior is below the threshold at which scaling became a concern, so you really feel the nerf. A warrior with that character's gear is balanced: high-level blues and something like a TUF, which is solid but not significantly above blue gear.

The Enrage nerf was designed to stop warriors with epic PvP armor or full raiding DPS plate (Drake Talon, Flameguards, Onslaught, Endless Rage, Chromatic Boots, etc.) and a 75+ DPS 2h, from getting crit once and then destroying a whole group with a single whirlwind. I'm sure you've seen the Pat videos (though a lot of the flashy numbers were from the buggy 31/21 spec period).

I'll leave it to an actual PvP warrior to comment further.

Yes, I have been leaving a lot of people, either at low life as I died, or just out of execute range, where I could finish them off.

When it comes to warriors in groups, I think that using the pat video as a point of reference proves how mistaken the community is in examining the warrior class. Not only did he have the best gear, he also utilized every buff in the game, had 2 shaman group with him to ensure every offensive totem option, a priest backing him with dispel, and he was fighting undergeared idiots who chose to focus on him, instead of ignoring him and going after his healers.

Was SS+WW/execute stupid. No question, they should have hotfixed that stuff out, but I think the enrage nerf was way overboard, solo or group, no matter what your gear.

And I suppose here's my biggest problem with it. In a 1v1 scenario against good mages/warlocks/hunters, it doesn't really matter how much damage I do, because I'd be lucky to get 2-3 attacks on them before I die.

And although they may not "balance" the game around 1v1 it factors in highly with how the game scales in groups. What do you define as a group then, 2v2? 3v3? I was duoing with one of our fully BWL geared priests yesterday for example, and we came up 2v2 against a mage priest combo. The mage didn't even bother to sheep, he nova'd me, popped ZHC and AP, and blew the priest away in less than 3 seconds.

That's the thing about warrior 1 shot PvP, I have no sheep, no seduce, no trap, no realistic chain stun method, and I can't attack you during my fear. All I have is damage to deal with people.

Breaksmith · 01/23/06, 12:06 PM

Hi there. Long time listener, first time caller.

While my PvP these days is mostly restricted to shits and giggles, the implementation of the Enrage nerf does confuse me a little. I strongly recall a blue post on the US WoW Forums (a "strongly recall" is as good as a quote, right?) that said the reson for the nerf was to prevent warriors being permanently enraged, or word to that effect, rather than the damage bonus itself being too large.

While I can see that if you're toting a Rag/BWL 2Her around, hitting everyone and everything for 1k upwards, another 40% is probably a little excessive, it seems odd that they left the duration alone and nerfed the damage. If the concern (the "strongly recalled" concern) was to stop warriors being perma-enraged, why not reduce the length of the buff to six seconds or two hits? It feels like that would have solved their problem with the to pwarriors without slipping blue equipped warriors the high hard one.

subscience · 01/23/06, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by XI-,January 23rd, 2006 @ 12:00PM

That's the thing about warrior 1 shot PvP, I have no sheep, no seduce, no trap, no realistic chain stun method, and I can't attack you during my fear. All I have is damage to deal with people.

This is what a lot of people don't realize, I think. When that Priest in your PvP group is yelling at you to "OMG GET THAT FUCKING HUNTER OFF ME!", what can you really do? Other than blowing an Intimidating Shout or trying to Hamstring (but your Priest would probably be already snared anyway), the only way we can drop someone hell-bent on taking out your support is by damage.

And of course, Warrior damage has dropped significantly overall from each passing patch.

Warriors cannot support their support. This is why I tend to only roll with Paladins. Priests are way too susceptible to focus fire and although Druids have a great deal of survivability, they cannot heal when they're trying to fend off Rogues anyway.

Disarm is the closest thing we have to prevent classes from ganking our support, but, yea... It leaves a lot to be desired.

rline · 01/23/06, 12:55 PM

I've noticed that my survivability duelling against cloth casters, particularly mages and shadow priests, has dropped significantly. Any mage that knows how to play his or her class will allow me only one or two hits on him, and if I cant break through his mana shield then I'm pretty much fucked. It may seem stupid but going from 40% to 25% makes a difference when I'm 1% away from executing a mage that popped all of his timers on me. Dueling someone like Ishaxa is ridiculous if I dont have intimidating shout or an iron grenade on hand in order to interrupt a poly. If he has all of his cooldowns up then I'm guaranteed to lose.

I havent noticed too much of a difference in group PvP though. It is a bit harder to burn a class down if I'm the only melee, but otherwise its pretty much the same. Mortal strike is still important for groups, and if anyone is attacking me first they are just feeding me rage and making matters worse for themselves.

Things like the SS/Execute bug were obviously broken, but if they keep slightly nerfing everything that makes a warrior effective in PvP every patch then I keep thinking I'm going to end up being a Paladin that cant heal.

• Zoid · 01/23/06, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by subscience,January 23rd, 2006 @ 9:08AM

Warriors cannot support their support. This is why I tend to only roll with Paladins. Priests are way too susceptible to focus fire and although Druids have a great deal of survivability, they cannot heal when they're trying to fend off Rogues anyway.

I'm a raiding priest with about 4500 health and 8000 mana now. With inner fire, my survivability is really good (I have more armor than most rogues).

The way warriors protect me is to just kill who's attacking me. Nothing can kill me that quickly since I have enough health and resists to last a fairly long time. I can heal myself for a very, very long time and give the warror plenty of time to kill whoever is attacking me.

A paladin can't heal as long as I can. He can keep a single target up, but I can keep an entire group up in PvP. I've stood on the hill above the bridge to Stormpike and kept dozens of people alive while being shot with arrows. My regeneration on mana is just incredible.

The only thing that really kills me is silence. If a mage gets me silenced and focus fire on me, I'm dead.

But, a priest in blues without the armor and regeneration I have will not survive.

Edit: Hmm, I need to update my icon, I'm wearing Transcendence now.

subscience · 01/23/06, 2:26 PM

True - A Priest with a solid spec and gear does have tremendous amounts of survival. A Priest friend that I used to PvP all the time with had some jaw-dropping survivability.

But you take your average Disc/Holy Priest in non-raid gear and they're just an Ambush->Backstab->HK waiting to happen. :x

Lord BEEF · 01/23/06, 3:10 PM

Warriors are very difficult to balance between 1 on 1 and group pvp due to the rage system. They're either going to be weak in solo and okay in groups, or good at one and totally dominant in groups.

Every 90 damage a level 60 warrior takes, they generate one rage. When a warrior has 4500 health, this means they have 50 rage to spend from incoming damage, and all the rest has to come from you dealing damage. You only have 4500 health and you have to deal with the full brunt of all non-fear based crowd control.

When you add in healing to the mix, the warrior not only generates more rage from incoming damage, but survives through the stunlock/diminshing returns on roots or whatever it may be, and they're much much more deadly.

~~~~~~~

As for healer survivability, I don't think you give druids enough credit. We can't heal while having the armor value of plate, but we have a plethora of tricks we can use to avoid incoming attackers. We can drop a regrowth and rejuv and that will provide 3-4.5k of total healing in 3 seconds of casting time, and then deal with the rogue either through nature's grasp, bear form, travel form, or war stomp/entangle.

Honestly I feel bad for priests in pvp, mainly alliance ones. Once a rogue or warrior gets on you, and you cast psychic scream only to see immune or trinkets/will of the forsaken activated you're basically out of options until your attackers die. Not to mention you can't cure viper sting, ugh.

Legato · 01/23/06, 4:19 PM

I honestly hate it when there are druids in the horde group I am fighting. With rooting and travel form they can run me around and still get a heal off on their group mate every now and then. I usually save my intim. shout to disrupt druids that root me but don't get out of shout range to heal.