I was disappointed at first, and every day I spend PvPing on my warrior it continuously baffles me why they nerfed enrage. I'm wondering what some of your thoughts are now that we've had a little time to digest it.

http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?498973

That's my pvp character. Basically 100% geared from PvP, although I've taken him to ZG once or twice. But at this point if you completely geared a character from ZG/PvP, up to rank 11, I can't feasibly kill anyone with similar gear and skill in a 1v1 scenario. The only way I'm going to kill someone is if 1. They're an idiot, 2. I have a long period of time to work said idiot over.

This isn't even touching on the fact that to rank up in PvP on my server, you basically have to solo for honor, and to compete you need to be able to burst someone out in the shortest amount of time possible, to get the most CP.

I'm sure someone like gurg, or slug will post a long and eloquent response that will cover the point much better than I can.

Neither long nor eloquent, but two thoughts:

1) Is doing 125% damage for a few attacks after a crit instead of 140% actually making that much of a difference? Are people consistently escaping at 10% health, or are you dying with your opponent close to death as well, often?

2) Unfortunately the Enrage nerf was a bandaid for a scaling problem, and your warrior is below the threshold at which scaling became a concern, so you really feel the nerf. A warrior with that character's gear is balanced: high-level blues and something like a TUF, which is solid but not significantly above blue gear.

The Enrage nerf was designed to stop warriors with epic PvP armor or full raiding DPS plate (Drake Talon, Flameguards, Onslaught, Endless Rage, Chromatic Boots, etc.) and a 75+ DPS 2h, from getting crit once and then destroying a whole group with a single whirlwind. I'm sure you've seen the Pat videos (though a lot of the flashy numbers were from the buggy 31/21 spec period).

I'll leave it to an actual PvP warrior to comment further.

The Enrage nerf in itself was bad, but not entirely crippling.

However, the Warrior is a much, much weaker class in a 1v1 situation than it was a few months ago due to compounding nerfs. The Enrage change coupled with the instant attack changes, Sweeping Strikes changes, Sword Spec changes, etc. have made the Warrior a very weak solo class.

They're still a decent group PvP class with good support, but not nearly as dominating as they once were. But it was a bit ridiculous to be Enraged nearly 100% of the time in group combat. Also, the SS'ed Execute needed to go as well.

Eh, I don't know. I might just make this Warrior a PvE character and roll a Hunter for PvP.

Edit - Removed some off-topic stuff. Anyway, you shouldn't expect to excel in PvP without support. Without support, you're an easily snareable, kiteable, CCable target that has lower priority than a Mage, healer, or Hunter.

Caster scaling (specifically Mages, but all casters apply, really) is far more noticeable and scales up quite significantly past a certain threshold than Warriors do (well, at least comparing my Mages to this Warrior), I feel. Particularly when you factor in those two trinkets.

The trinkets are the retarded part. I cannot believe they put in the ZHC after seeing how ToEP worked, and then put them on separate cooldowns. It seems so retardedly out of sync with their other PvP-related decisions.

On the one hand, Blizzard makes it seem like they don't want people doing too much burst damage. That makes a lot of sense to me. One-shot PvP isn't fun. So we saw rogue/warrior normalization. The enrage changes. The changes to CoS/CoE and negative resists to prevent ridiculous -100% vuln crit one-shots. Makes sense, right?

And then, on the other hand, they actively have given casters the ability to instakill people every couple of minutes. So many shitty mages out there relying on their cooldowns these days.

But anyway, yeah, the points above about warriors are correct. Also, bear in mind that I think warriors were never really overpowered in 1v1, regardless of gear. The problem was in group PvP, which is what the game is really designed around anyway. Warriors are still good in group PvP, but they've definitely suffered a lot in 1v1.

(PS: For comedy, just say "normalization" to a hunter who has a Ashjre'thul and watch the expletives fly.)

I've actually noticed this as well. When I originally rolled Zappy he was just an argument for the fact that caster gear scaled and that using only +dmg gear would be effective . He transitioned into my pvp character, and while my skill quotient is probably mediocre at best relative to a good mage(I suck at kiting, as Appleseed can attest), he's been a lot more fun. However, when I hit about Rank 8 I realized that PvP gear alone wasn't going to be enough. Queues weren't rapid enough to get me decent weapons, and the "best blues" set for a mage is pretty mediocre for PvP since it lacks damage. I found, however, that supplementing my gear with a few ZG/MC epics(ZHC, Mageblade, Gloves of Hypnotic Flame, mage set bracers, and Bloodlord pants) gave my character enough of a boost that I went from crappy gear to mediocre gear, and PvP was fun again.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a successful high-rank warrior that didn't have a PvE epic weapon. There are some very skilled ones who have pvp gear and are somewhat effective, but the weapon seems to make much more difference for the blue-geared warriors than rogues.

Edit: Gurgthock is absolutely correct with regards to hunter normalization. Having seen the exact chain of events play out(AP factored into ambush/backstab is roughly comparable to delinking the autoshot timer from aimed shot) it's interesting to know what's coming and not be able to effectively communicate it.

Yes, I have been leaving a lot of people, either at low life as I died, or just out of execute range, where I could finish them off.

When it comes to warriors in groups, I think that using the pat video as a point of reference proves how mistaken the community is in examining the warrior class. Not only did he have the best gear, he also utilized every buff in the game, had 2 shaman group with him to ensure every offensive totem option, a priest backing him with dispel, and he was fighting undergeared idiots who chose to focus on him, instead of ignoring him and going after his healers.

Was SS+WW/execute stupid. No question, they should have hotfixed that stuff out, but I think the enrage nerf was way overboard, solo or group, no matter what your gear.

And I suppose here's my biggest problem with it. In a 1v1 scenario against good mages/warlocks/hunters, it doesn't really matter how much damage I do, because I'd be lucky to get 2-3 attacks on them before I die.

And although they may not "balance" the game around 1v1 it factors in highly with how the game scales in groups. What do you define as a group then, 2v2? 3v3? I was duoing with one of our fully BWL geared priests yesterday for example, and we came up 2v2 against a mage priest combo. The mage didn't even bother to sheep, he nova'd me, popped ZHC and AP, and blew the priest away in less than 3 seconds.

That's the thing about warrior 1 shot PvP, I have no sheep, no seduce, no trap, no realistic chain stun method, and I can't attack you during my fear. All I have is damage to deal with people.

Hi there. Long time listener, first time caller.

While my PvP these days is mostly restricted to shits and giggles, the implementation of the Enrage nerf does confuse me a little. I strongly recall a blue post on the US WoW Forums (a "strongly recall" is as good as a quote, right?) that said the reson for the nerf was to prevent warriors being permanently enraged, or word to that effect, rather than the damage bonus itself being too large.

While I can see that if you're toting a Rag/BWL 2Her around, hitting everyone and everything for 1k upwards, another 40% is probably a little excessive, it seems odd that they left the duration alone and nerfed the damage. If the concern (the "strongly recalled" concern) was to stop warriors being perma-enraged, why not reduce the length of the buff to six seconds or two hits? It feels like that would have solved their problem with the to pwarriors without slipping blue equipped warriors the high hard one.

This is what a lot of people don't realize, I think. When that Priest in your PvP group is yelling at you to "OMG GET THAT FUCKING HUNTER OFF ME!", what can you really do? Other than blowing an Intimidating Shout or trying to Hamstring (but your Priest would probably be already snared anyway), the only way we can drop someone hell-bent on taking out your support is by damage.

And of course, Warrior damage has dropped significantly overall from each passing patch.

Warriors cannot support their support. This is why I tend to only roll with Paladins. Priests are way too susceptible to focus fire and although Druids have a great deal of survivability, they cannot heal when they're trying to fend off Rogues anyway.

Disarm is the closest thing we have to prevent classes from ganking our support, but, yea... It leaves a lot to be desired.

I've noticed that my survivability duelling against cloth casters, particularly mages and shadow priests, has dropped significantly. Any mage that knows how to play his or her class will allow me only one or two hits on him, and if I cant break through his mana shield then I'm pretty much fucked. It may seem stupid but going from 40% to 25% makes a difference when I'm 1% away from executing a mage that popped all of his timers on me. Dueling someone like Ishaxa is ridiculous if I dont have intimidating shout or an iron grenade on hand in order to interrupt a poly. If he has all of his cooldowns up then I'm guaranteed to lose.

I havent noticed too much of a difference in group PvP though. It is a bit harder to burn a class down if I'm the only melee, but otherwise its pretty much the same. Mortal strike is still important for groups, and if anyone is attacking me first they are just feeding me rage and making matters worse for themselves.

Things like the SS/Execute bug were obviously broken, but if they keep slightly nerfing everything that makes a warrior effective in PvP every patch then I keep thinking I'm going to end up being a Paladin that cant heal.

I'm a raiding priest with about 4500 health and 8000 mana now. With inner fire, my survivability is really good (I have more armor than most rogues).

The way warriors protect me is to just kill who's attacking me. Nothing can kill me that quickly since I have enough health and resists to last a fairly long time. I can heal myself for a very, very long time and give the warror plenty of time to kill whoever is attacking me.

A paladin can't heal as long as I can. He can keep a single target up, but I can keep an entire group up in PvP. I've stood on the hill above the bridge to Stormpike and kept dozens of people alive while being shot with arrows. My regeneration on mana is just incredible.

The only thing that really kills me is silence. If a mage gets me silenced and focus fire on me, I'm dead.

But, a priest in blues without the armor and regeneration I have will not survive.

Edit: Hmm, I need to update my icon, I'm wearing Transcendence now.

Warriors are very difficult to balance between 1 on 1 and group pvp due to the rage system. They're either going to be weak in solo and okay in groups, or good at one and totally dominant in groups.

Every 90 damage a level 60 warrior takes, they generate one rage. When a warrior has 4500 health, this means they have 50 rage to spend from incoming damage, and all the rest has to come from you dealing damage. You only have 4500 health and you have to deal with the full brunt of all non-fear based crowd control.

When you add in healing to the mix, the warrior not only generates more rage from incoming damage, but survives through the stunlock/diminshing returns on roots or whatever it may be, and they're much much more deadly.

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As for healer survivability, I don't think you give druids enough credit. We can't heal while having the armor value of plate, but we have a plethora of tricks we can use to avoid incoming attackers. We can drop a regrowth and rejuv and that will provide 3-4.5k of total healing in 3 seconds of casting time, and then deal with the rogue either through nature's grasp, bear form, travel form, or war stomp/entangle.

Honestly I feel bad for priests in pvp, mainly alliance ones. Once a rogue or warrior gets on you, and you cast psychic scream only to see immune or trinkets/will of the forsaken activated you're basically out of options until your attackers die. Not to mention you can't cure viper sting, ugh.

I honestly hate it when there are druids in the horde group I am fighting. With rooting and travel form they can run me around and still get a heal off on their group mate every now and then. I usually save my intim. shout to disrupt druids that root me but don't get out of shout range to heal.

You're right- Maybe I don't give Druids enough credit. I originally had a Druid to 38ish that I was going to use solely for PvP combat healing (the Improved Regrowth talent sold me), but I ended up selling that account and making my Gnomie.

I'm a bit tempted to make another Druid though. Restoration for lyfe! :ph34r:

Edit- And about the Alliance Priest thing: I remind my Alliance Priest friends that every day. B) Edit 2: And that they don't have Devouring Plague. :laugh:

You don't need to kite me. I just wanted a hug. :(

Wodin your Zappy? :D Hey nice battles with you and Archz in AV yesterday.

What I find most imbalanced is my old spec. With 28arc/23frost my crit percentage while the target was frost nova'd would break 70%. If I popped both trinkets I'd have a 70% chance to crit them for 2400-2600 damage (almost ALWAYS a critical). I also would get usually 2 frostbolts off so im looking at quite a high damage potential. I could 2 shot every target every 2-3 minutes.

I agree that there needs to be something done about the ZHC and ToEP. My proposal would be a switch in the way Arcane Power works. Either have it tap in the 35% damage BEFORE trinket activation or make AP only work for skills in the arcane tree. That way you wont have people winding up with 1800-2000 damage non-crit pyros but rather non powered ones.

PS Appleseed - Ironic how you talk of PvP when you sit idle in town in nearly every AV i have been in the last week. (Including your leech of our winning games...)

I don't see why hero charm and talisman aren't treated like explosives, or potions. When you use one, you can't use the other for 30 seconds.

Yeah, I'm AP specced since Warsong Gulch actually pops enough that being able to two-shot a flag carrier is important. If it weren't such ridiculous burst damage in a small window I'd go back to the firepower spec in a heartbeat. I miss Blast Wave.

As far as how they're solving the 1-2 shot problem, I think we will see hunter normalization and a nerf to the way +dmg works. I don't predict offensive casters are going to like it very much when it happens, but they made the stat a little too cheap relative to melee classes, and the "burst" trinkets and rings are a lot of fun, but they're a really bad idea. Rogues don't get to frontload 2 minutes of DPS increase in 20 seconds, and the non-diminishing ones like TOEP and Wrath of Cenarius(the ring) are actually even nastier. I'm not looking forward to fighting a mage kitted out in AQ40 gear - no, they won't have the PoM proc, but any spell resistance you have might as well not be there, and they'll have a lot of hit/crit/damage and proc effects.

Eh, I've done better.

P.S. Please don't normalize me!

Edit: I decided to add content to this post. When Blizzard goes around doing things such as the Enrage nerf and normalization, they really, really need to re-evaluate certain skills. Scaling already outshines nonscaling in almost every case at this stage in the game for a top-tier raider, and doing things like adding new ranks of skills and the aftmentioned fixes are, as Gurgthock put it, band-aids at best.

This is prominent within my own class as well: Arcane Shot doesn't really scale(ok, it scales with spell damage...horribly), nor do a few other skills, and most importantly, my pet does not scale. Yes, I can wear entire sets of gear to make my pet about .5% better, but I'd rather not(I had a much longer rant on these but I decided to stay focused on the topic at hand).

It's already been said that the Enrage nerf dealt directly with scaling. But it was a termporary fix at best--come a few months down the line when Warriors are wielding axes from the Naxxramas Necropolis or whatever other high-tier dungeons, and warriors are going to be once again destroying entire groups of lesser-geared players after a crit. Blizzard isn't going to like that, but I hope rather than nerfing Enrage again, they take a look at damage scaling and PvP as a whole and find a better solution. I don't have one, which is why I don't usually post on this sort of thing...but I hope Blizzard can find one.

Well, geez, I see enough of it when I'm idling in town when the Horde makes it to our bunkers. Doesn't that qualify as experience?

Edit - I'm idling in it now! :lol: :lol:

But no seriously, I've grinded Exalted before on another server and I actually played up to Revered on Appleseed. I'm just so fucking sick of it that I just want to hit Exalted (in about 2 days) and I'll be out of your hair. :P

It's so true, especially on hybrids (god, I've seen a Shaman do some crazy shit with a Natural Alignment Crystal and a ZHC...). I had the pleasure of eating a 2k+ Mind Blast the other night from a Shadow Priest (lol) with ToEP & ZHC.

But aside from how b0rked ZHC and ToEP are, what do others think about the Warrior nerfs?