I'm thinking more along the lines of passive damage boosters which are generally the biggest thing for raid dps, like dual weild spec, precision, lethality and the like.
Looking through the sublety tree it seems like speccing for hemmorage is essentially like speccing for mana tide totem. Jesus sublety has shit for raid dps talents.
Originally Posted by subscience,January 24th, 2006 @ 2:56PM
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF,January 24th, 2006 @ 2:50PM
The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?
You miss out on Seal Fate and above in the Assassination tree and Adrenaline Rush in the Combat tree. Hemorrhage requires 26 points in Sublety (which I don't think is as bad a talent tree as XI makes it out to be).
However, you can still get Cold Blood or Blade Flurry.
We're talking PvE here. The problem is that to get Hemo, you have to either give up dual-wield spec+weapon spec, OR you have to give up Lethality+Relentless Strikes.
Hemo is pretty good, but those other talent pairs are the core of any PvE rogue spec.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:02PM
We're talking PvE here. The problem is that to get Hemo, you have to either give up dual-wield spec+weapon spec, OR you have to give up Lethality+Relentless Strikes.
Hemo is pretty good, but those other talent pairs are the core of any PvE rogue spec.
Hm. Optimally, wouldn't having 1 Hemo Rogue in your raid boost your overall damage compared to if that Rogue was a DW/Combat spec?
I guess we just had the luxury of having a Hemo Rogue that had a very solid attendance record. I remember reading the breakdown on Hemo and it's affect on raid DPS and it was pretty surprising. I'd dig it up if the WoW forums weren't still crapping on themselves.
No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:13PM
No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.
Hm.
It might also be worth factoring in the very low Energy cost and the fact that not only is it a quick DoT-style debuff which gets consumed quickly (meaning you can lay Hemos as quick as you have Energy in some cases), but it does have a DD portion as well. Also, CP generation will be faster than Combat Rogues but maybe not as quick as SF Rogues.
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF,January 24th, 2006 @ 2:50PM
Oh god so many things to reply to.
Back on druids:
There may not be a 75% reduction cap for armor. There was a screenshot of an alliance druid on test that had inspiration and improved lay on hands during the brief period where it gave a 50% armor boost. The druid had 23,000 armor, and the character screen displayed something like 86.9% reduction. This means that either there is no 75% reduction cap like there is for resistances, or the character screen is lying. It's hard to say which is more likely.
If you really wanted to make a boss fight gimmick that favors druids, you just need to give it a knockback that it uses every 16 seconds. Make it immune to all immobolizing effects except for feral charge.
With warrior tanking you'd have to use two tanks, with one taunting as soon as it knocks the other back, otherwise it'd run loose and bitchslap your healers/dps. With druid tanking you could just feral charge every knockback. Both would be doable, but warrior tanking would be a bit tougher.
Another example of how you could do this is already in the game in the form of the zg spider boss. Alliance can just cheese it with blessing of freedom, but horde has to two tank it, or they can single tank it with a druid, using shapeshifting to remove the roots and feral charge to catch up with her.
~~~~
As for hemmorage, it's actually one of the few attacks that hasn't been normalized. If you use a slow weapon like an empyrean demolisher, wouldn't it theoretically be able to do quite good damage if you have enough attack power? Weapon damage + 210 plus your attack power calculated on a 2.8 basis for 35 energy sounds pretty damn good.
The drawback is that you miss out on a lot of combat/assassination talents. What talents do you end up having to give up in order to spec hemmorage?
If its tauntable I'd just treat it like a drake and have the OT taunt and eat knockbacks :P. If its not tauntable have a druid feral charge it, while your MT intercepts to it. Still wouldn't need them to tank ;).
To get hemo you basically give up everything in combat with the typical build. DW spec/prec/BF/AR/aggression.
If you tried some sub/combat bastard hybrid you'd give up all the good ass talents like ruthlessness, relentless strikes, improved S&D, possibly improved evis, and lethality.
In exchange you could take amazing talents like camo, MoD, rapid concealment, elusiveness, ghostly strike (see where I'm going here). Subtlety doesn't have anything for real PvE dmg boosters.
Originally Posted by subscience,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:20PM
Originally Posted by Praetorian,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:13PM
No, because like I said, it's not a raid debuff really. It only has 30 charges. It's basically a 210pt DoT that ticks very rapidly over the course of a few seconds after you do Hemo. It's not a % increase to raid damage, it isn't a time-based debuff. It's just 30 rapid ticks of 7 damage each.
Hm.
It might also be worth factoring in the very low Energy cost and the fact that not only is it a quick DoT-style debuff which gets consumed quickly (meaning you can lay Hemos as quick as you have Energy in some cases), but it does have a DD portion as well. Also, CP generation will be faster than Combat Rogues but maybe not as quick as SF Rogues.
Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.
Originally Posted by XI-,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:25PM
Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.
That's the name of my game. B)
Have you seen the Nerf Sap 6 video of that Prep Rogue? I was pretty impressed watching it, but I was also extremely high, so I shall reserve final judgement until I can watch it again.
Originally Posted by subscience,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:31PM
Originally Posted by XI-,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:25PM
Yes, its also worth factoring that the tree as a whole blows and is only good for being a tool in PvP.
That's the name of my game. B)
Have you seen the Nerf Sap 6 video of that Prep Rogue? I was pretty impressed watching it, but I was also extremely high, so I shall reserve final judgement until I can watch it again.
I'm not impressed by anything that involves all of your cooldowns at the same time leaving yourself completely defenseless for the next X minutes. As a rogue when I duel people I use as few cooldowns as possible, yea I'm sure if I OOC stealthed 27 times, and blinded you 4 times I could win, but what would it prove other than I was a faggot.
Originally Posted by subscience,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:20PM
It might also be worth factoring in the very low Energy cost and the fact that not only is it a quick DoT-style debuff which gets consumed quickly (meaning you can lay Hemos as quick as you have Energy in some cases), but it does have a DD portion as well. Also, CP generation will be faster than Combat Rogues but maybe not as quick as SF Rogues.
The energy cost was factored into the CP math I ran - Hemo will generate one more combo point than spamming SS every 12 seconds.
With good gear SF rogues generate combo points at a slightly higher rate than a rogue spamming SS. However, there are a couple problems. Your critrate against a 63 elite is not what your mouseover + 30% is, regardless of how much we wish it.
So SS rogues generate 1CP every 4 seconds from an empty energy bar.
Seal Fate rogues generate 2CP every 6 seconds (critrate + 30)% of the time, and 1CP (1 - critrate+30) the rest of the time.
My default critrate in raiding gear is ~30%(it's actually 29.6 but 30 is nice and round). Were I to spec Seal Fate this would drop to 25% thanks to the loss of max dagger spec, so I could expect every backstab to give on average approximately (2 * .55) + (1 * .45) = 1.55CP. That's 1.03CP generated per 40 energy vs. 1 for a combat build, but we lose DW spec, precision, and dagger spec, all of which are huge for a raiding build.
Hemo rogues generate 1CP every 35 energy, or 1.75 seconds. So you're generating 1.14 CP per 40 energy, which is much faster than Seal Fate. You'd need to boost your critrate with backstab to 72% - a base 42% critrate - before SF would generate CP faster than hemo.
Originally Posted by subscience,January 24th, 2006 @ 3:31PM
Have you seen the Nerf Sap 6 video of that Prep Rogue? I was pretty impressed watching it, but I was also extremely high, so I shall reserve final judgement until I can watch it again.
That idiot wants to nerf sap? SAP?! Fuck me, he can take that skill away completely! Cannot be applied in combat, can only be applied in stealth and doesn't even last the full duration if the mob is even or higher level than you, most of the time. Yeah, that needs nerfing. I'm glad I'm a pure combat build now, instead of Seal Fate, so I can just Blade Flurry two mobs down instead of praying that sap holds on long enough. God.
<08-07-09 02:09>[Velth] This is the behavior of a benefactor of the EJ forums?
I think the conclusion that they are different types of tanks is fair but having some of both(tanking wise atleast) is not necessary since there really arent any encounts(MC and BWL atleast) that really make the differences matter, atleast where having a druid doing the tanking would be more effective.
Originally Posted by Fjord,January 25th, 2006 @ 4:35PM
Or earth shock. ;)
Fuck earth shock and fuck those 3 shaman earth shocking me after i try to get a flash heal off. Earth shock should not have damage added onto their interupt. :angry:
Originally Posted by newladin,January 25th, 2006 @ 5:27PM
Originally Posted by Fjord,January 25th, 2006 @ 4:35PM
Or earth shock. ;)
Fuck earth shock and fuck those 3 shaman earth shocking me after i try to get a flash heal off. Earth shock should not have damage added onto their interupt. :angry:
Hey, look! It does cause high threat even in PvP!
<08-07-09 02:09>[Velth] This is the behavior of a benefactor of the EJ forums?
01/24/06, 4:00 PM
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