Elitist Jerks Spell crits and threat

 02/09/06, 11:51 AM #1 Liandra Piston Honda   Liandrax Undead Mage   Al'Akir (EU) I've been wondering about this for a long time now, and perhaps someone here knows the answer. Look at the following four situations. A mage without Ignite (extra damage on crits) casts the following spells on one mob: A) Five Scorch hits of 400 damage each = 2,000 damage. B) Two Fireball hits of 1,000 damage each = 2,000 damage. C) Two Scorch hits of 400 damage each and two Scorch crits of 600 damage each = 2,000 damage. D) One Scorch hit of 400 damage and one Fireball crit of 1,600 damage = 2,000 damage. The question is simple: do all these four combinations cause the same amount of total threat? Why (not)? With great power comes great responsibility.
 02/09/06, 11:54 AM #2 ♦ Praetorian Mike Tyson     Gurgthock Orc Shaman   Mal'Ganis A) 2000 threat B) 2000 threat C) Approximately 2600 threat D) Approximately 2800 threat A crit generates, on average, 50% more aggro than you would expect based on damage alone (I believe it is variable... something like a range between 33% and 66% extra threat, but I haven't done remotely enough testing to confirm this).
 02/09/06, 12:07 PM #3 hamlet_the_lesser King Hippo   Hamlet Shaman   Sargeras another perfect example of why I am more of a fan of +damage than crit.
 02/09/06, 12:16 PM #4 Liandra Piston Honda   Liandrax Undead Mage   Al'Akir (EU) So that means 4 crits of 1,000 each would do the same amount of threat as one crit of 4,000. How sure are you of this? I have the feeling that the higher the crit, the more extra threat it does. For example, using the formula crit_damage ^ 1.06 (where ^ indicates "to the power of", just to be sure). This hypothetic formula would mean: Scorch crit of 600 cause about 880 threat. Three Scorch crits of 600 cause about 3 * 880 = 2640 threat. Fireball crit of 1800 cause about 2820 threat. Hm, not much of a difference as I was hoping. Anyway, my idea was that higher crits might cause more threat that several low crits adding up to the same amount of damage as the high crit. Perhaps I should do some research about this... could it be that Combustion has a use after all? B) With great power comes great responsibility.
02/09/06, 12:25 PM   #5
subscience
Great Tiger

Orc Mage

Ner'zhul
 Originally Posted by Liandra,February 9th, 2006 @ 12:16PM could it be that Combustion has a use after all? B)
:laugh:

02/09/06, 12:28 PM   #6
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Liandra,February 9th, 2006 @ 12:16PM So that means 4 crits of 1,000 each would do the same amount of threat as one crit of 4,000. How sure are you of this? I have the feeling that the higher the crit, the more extra threat it does. For example, using the formula crit_damage ^ 1.06 (where ^ indicates "to the power of", just to be sure). This hypothetic formula would mean: Scorch crit of 600 cause about 880 threat. Three Scorch crits of 600 cause about 3 * 880 = 2640 threat. Fireball crit of 1800 cause about 2820 threat. Hm, not much of a difference as I was hoping. Anyway, my idea was that higher crits might cause more threat that several low crits adding up to the same amount of damage as the high crit. Perhaps I should do some research about this... could it be that Combustion has a use after all? B)
It seems uncharacteristic that they would do something that complex (any kind of threat going nonlinearly with damage). I doubt there's anything to support it either--although it would be an illusion easily created by the tendency of huge spike threat to pull aggro more easily than a threat gain which is divided in time.

 02/09/06, 12:35 PM #7 hamlet_the_lesser King Hippo   Hamlet Shaman   Sargeras One of the reasons it may seem that 1 crit of 4k does more is that the extra threat happened in a more compact time period and you filled the other time with atleast something else.
02/10/06, 10:32 AM   #8
Jo_
Don Flamenco

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Praetorian,February 9th, 2006 @ 11:54AM A crit generates, on average, 50% more aggro than you would expect based on damage alone (I believe it is variable... something like a range between 33% and 66% extra threat, but I haven't done remotely enough testing to confirm this).
\o

does this apply to melee attacks aswell? our rogues refuse to belive that and my guess is it does but the 0.8 threat modifier makes them not understand it :P

 02/10/06, 10:34 AM #9 • bartolimu palpably superior comprehension     Gilliam Undead Warlock   Mal'Ganis Yes. Just ask Gamblor, he bitches constantly about doing less damage and getting aggro first because he crits too much.
 02/10/06, 10:34 AM #10 ♦ Praetorian Mike Tyson     Gurgthock Orc Shaman   Mal'Ganis Yes. This is part of why dagger rogues tend to pull aggro more than sword/mace rogues. When a huge chunk of your damage is coming from four-digit crits (backstabs) you are generating a lot of aggro.
 02/10/06, 10:34 AM #11 • Wodin Thoroughly Inebriated     Wodin Troll Rogue   Mal'Ganis It does indeed. We've had instances where two rogues have significantly different critrates, and the one with the higher critrate pulls aggro despite having done less total damage than the one who wasn't critting. There was also the shortlived experiment with feral druids gearing for crit instead of AP. That was pretty funny. :D
02/10/06, 10:44 AM   #12
Graham
Soda Popinski

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Wodin,February 10th, 2006 @ 10:34AM There was also the shortlived experiment with feral druids gearing for crit instead of AP. That was pretty funny. :D
Shamancraft has died.

from [Wodin]: HAHA
to [Wodin]: F U I was doing like 400 DPS before that giant turned around.

Chupid is still experimenting looking for the crit/ap sweet spot. I'm scared to try and am basically AP focused and trying to keep crit at 20% or less.

02/10/06, 10:47 AM   #13
Jo_
Don Flamenco

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Wodin,February 10th, 2006 @ 10:34AM There was also the shortlived experiment with feral druids gearing for crit instead of AP. That was pretty funny. :D
haha yea I can imagine. now for the grand finale of complete knowledge in a short post. does this also apply to heals? on yourself/on others etc.

 02/10/06, 10:57 AM #14 subscience Great Tiger     Cakezilla Orc Mage   Ner'zhul Wow, Feral Druids can do a sustained 400 DPS? That's pretty impressive. Sucks that Meow Form doesn't have the 0.8 threat multiplier that Rogues have. :(
02/10/06, 11:49 AM   #15
Torael_7
Piston Honda

Orc Rogue

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by subscience,February 10th, 2006 @ 10:57AM Sucks that Meow Form doesn't have the 0.8 threat multiplier that Rogues have. :(
And lets keep it that way, shall we? Us rogues are already replacable enough as it is. *grumbles*

:rolleyes:

 Elitist Jerks Spell crits and threat