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Old 07/14/09, 3:40 PM   #226
Cranberry
Banned
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tanaris
Originally Posted by Naros View Post
From other players experiences, which Ulduar encounters would you prefer the HP over the mitigation stats versus having more mitigation over HP.
There are currently only two scenarios that favor mitigation over EH, in my opinion. The first is a situation like Vezax where mana is an issue. The second is a fight where there is so *little* tank damage that your healer can swap off to the raid (think Mim P4's bottom, although obviously due to P1/3 Stam is still preferred). In any other case, tank healers will be spamming you anyway, and all the non-EH gear will do is increase overhealing at the cost of worst-case survival.

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Old 07/14/09, 5:35 PM   #227
Har
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Drenden
Aura of despair's tooltip says it reduces "melee attack speed" by 20%, but I was wondering if there's any chance that this may affect hunter auto-shot attack speed as well?

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Old 07/14/09, 8:02 PM   #228
xmod2
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by Naros View Post
I am a druid tank and for our raid I tanked General Vezax for the first time this past Saturday. While we gave him 10 solid shots, we did not beat him unfortunately. So I am coming here to find any tanking tips as a druid for this guy which could help out my healers.
What other classes are in the raid? You can use external cooldowns on the 3rd/6th surges.

Rotating paladin bubble-sacrifices along with barkskin should be enough, though you can fudge it with a pain suppression, trinkets and/or backup guardian spirits "just in case".

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Old 07/15/09, 12:48 AM   #229
Vespasian
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Draenei Shaman
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by Naros View Post
I am a druid tank and for our raid I tanked General Vezax for the first time this past Saturday. While we gave him 10 solid shots, we did not beat him unfortunately. So I am coming here to find any tanking tips as a druid for this guy which could help out my healers.
A few tips to manage things from a healing perspective:

1) Resto shaman can provide healing stream totem to the tank. Stoneskin totem works as well.
2) Spriest can provide VE
3) Ret can provide JoL- for us, this fight was totally undoable without a ret paladin. JoL means that you will never have to heal the raid, even during the Animus phase if your dps is good enough.

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Old 07/15/09, 3:09 AM   #230
Starfire
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Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
Ret pallies can use Art of War procs to FoL the tank as well. And all Ret pallies should have access to Divine Sacrifice which is invaluable at later stacks. It's important to highlight, while Holy and Prot pallies can do JoL, Ret pallies do the biggest/best JoL by a noticeable margin.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 07/15/09, 4:33 AM   #231
vorda
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Originally Posted by Starfire View Post
Ret pallies can use Art of War procs to FoL the tank as well.
If you consider 300 hp heals worth anything, sure. Besides jol/disac/hosalv, ret's biggest strenght is Sacred Shield. The downside of all this is that it is one of the lowest dps classes on vezax (ifnot rock bottom usually).

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Old 07/15/09, 3:56 PM   #232
UVCatastrophe
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
If you consider 300 hp heals worth anything, sure. Besides jol/disac/hosalv, ret's biggest strenght is Sacred Shield. The downside of all this is that it is one of the lowest dps classes on vezax (ifnot rock bottom usually).
FoL will heal for ~2500. Not a huge deal, but I don't know where you got the 300 figure from. JoL heals for way more than that. Take the perks you already mentioned and throw in kings and devotion aura and a ret paladin will do a hell of a lot to mitigate the tank's incoming damage.

EDIT: I stand corrected, FoL has severely reduced healing on this fight. My apologies.

Last edited by UVCatastrophe : 07/16/09 at 2:54 PM.

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Old 07/15/09, 4:12 PM   #233
Copernicus
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Night Elf Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by UVCatastrophe View Post
FoL will heal for ~2500. Not a huge deal, but I don't know where you got the 300 figure from. JoL heals for way more than that. Take the perks you already mentioned and throw in kings and devotion aura and a ret paladin will do a hell of a lot to mitigate the tank's incoming damage.
Paladins who use Judgments of the Wise get the Corrupted Wisdom - Spell - World of Warcraft debuff on General Vezax. It's a 90% debuff on healing.

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Old 07/15/09, 4:14 PM   #234
mako
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
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Originally Posted by UVCatastrophe View Post
FoL will heal for ~2500. Not a huge deal, but I don't know where you got the 300 figure from. JoL heals for way more than that. Take the perks you already mentioned and throw in kings and devotion aura and a ret paladin will do a hell of a lot to mitigate the tank's incoming damage.
Corrupted Wisdom lowers direct healing from ret paladins by 90% in the Vezax encounter; while they're certainly able to cast fol during the fight, it will hit for negligible amounts.

JoL, however, still heals it's normal amount and is useful during the animus phase.

Edit: Looks like Copernicus beat me to posting while I grammar checked myself. :<

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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Old 07/15/09, 5:26 PM   #235
vorda
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
JoL, however, still heals it's normal amount and is useful during the animus phase.
No, it doesn't. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
It still is very welcome added healing, but really, JoL ticking for 1k there would be insane.

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Old 07/15/09, 5:42 PM   #236
• Chicken
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Ginakursia
Goblin Warlock
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
No, it doesn't. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
It still is very welcome added healing, but really, JoL ticking for 1k there would be insane.
It is actually ticking for ~1k if you check deeper. In it's normal display World of Logs doesn't count overhealing, hence the lower number. It should also be noted that the way Judgement of Light is affected by Shadow Crash also does not work quite as you'd expect, instead of reducing the healing done by Judgement of Light when the judging Paladin is standing in a Shadow Crash, it actually depends on the person proccing it standing in a Shadow Crash.

buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
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Old 07/15/09, 5:49 PM   #237
Zurai
Bald Bull
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Whisperwind
Yeah, JoL definitely ticks for the full amount on Vezax. Our Ret pally is always, without fail, our main "overhealer" by literally 4 or 5 times our next highest (usually me as Blood spec tank). His JoLs heal for ~800-900.

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Old 07/15/09, 6:24 PM   #238
Jurik
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Night Elf Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
It should also be noted that the way Judgement of Light is affected by Shadow Crash also does not work quite as you'd expect, instead of reducing the healing done by Judgement of Light when the judging Paladin is standing in a Shadow Crash, it actually depends on the person proccing it standing in a Shadow Crash.

This also is the case for final healing on lifebloom: while the tick value depends on the caster's shadow crash debuff, the final bloom depends on whether the target has the shadow crash debuff. This is why "gaming" the shadow crash for lifebloom casts is a very effective way to heal hard-mode as a druid. It also means using discount lifeblooms to heal ranged casters does not work very well.

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Old 07/16/09, 10:16 AM   #239
Rhaegal
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Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
My guild has been doing Vezax on 10 with a disc priest and a shaman healing, but in looking ahead to hard mode, I don't see that combination being viable. We'll probably have our feral OT switch to tree for that, and I'm looking for a little clarification on the lifebloom mechanic in this fight.

As Jurik said above, you can game lifebloom by casting it from the crash and getting the full bloom on the tank, but what about the mana return? If cast from a crash, it would cost 25% of its normal cost, but does it return 50% of what it actually cost you, or the normal amount (50% of the untalented mana cost)? I'm assuming the former, as the latter would mean druids could spam lifebloom from a crash when they're not doing anything else to have near infinite mana on the fight, but I wanted confirmation.

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Old 07/16/09, 3:22 PM   #240
Jurik
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
I'm pretty sure shaman+disc is well qualified to heal that fight. Both classes have a mechanic they can abuse in Shadow Crashes.

During the fight, each bloom that pops returns 285 mana regardless of what the spell cost to cast. So, clearcasted lifeblooms net you 285 mana. Shadow-crashed lifeblooms end up costing almost zero mana with Spark of Life equipped. With Tier 7 set bonus, I think they may even return some mana.

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Old 07/16/09, 5:07 PM   #241
mako
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
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Dragonmaw
Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
I'm pretty sure shaman+disc is well qualified to heal that fight. Both classes have a mechanic they can abuse in Shadow Crashes.

During the fight, each bloom that pops returns 285 mana regardless of what the spell cost to cast. So, clearcasted lifeblooms net you 285 mana. Shadow-crashed lifeblooms end up costing almost zero mana with Spark of Life equipped. With Tier 7 set bonus, I think they may even return some mana.
I believe you're somewhat mistaken; Druids, not Shaman, have lifebloom.

That said, shaman can spec 0/44/27 and abuse the mana return mechanics that *do* work (shamanistic rage + improved stormstrike) in order to cope with the fight reasonably well. Two-healing the fight in general is fairly challenging, so adding a third healer would be beneficial anyway. A disc priest should be able to just about solo heal the main tank if s/he has cooldowns every surge.

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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Old 07/16/09, 5:28 PM   #242
Rhaegal
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by mako View Post
I believe you're somewhat mistaken; Druids, not Shaman, have lifebloom.

That said, shaman can spec 0/44/27 and abuse the mana return mechanics that *do* work (shamanistic rage + improved stormstrike) in order to cope with the fight reasonably well. Two-healing the fight in general is fairly challenging, so adding a third healer would be beneficial anyway. A disc priest should be able to just about solo heal the main tank if s/he has cooldowns every surge.
It may be that we simply don't have the gear for it yet. Two of our caster DPS (maybe only one these days, a destro 'lock) are pretty close to OOM when Vezax dies as is, and dropping a DPS for a 3rd healer would stretch them even more, not even counting the additional 2M health on the Animus. We also have to kite every fourth Surge, because our only CDs are Divine Protection and Pain Suppression, and PS has an obnoxious 2.4 min CD. If we kite on the 3rd Surge instead of the 4th, it would prevent having to kite while the Animus is up, though, which would be fine.

With a 3 healer scenario, my biggest concern would be DPS mana. I guess we might as well do it with 3 healers without trying hard mode and evaluating mana based on that. Thanks for the responses, though!

[edit] Also, regarding the first comment, he wasn't saying that Shaman have Lifebloom, but that we have a mechanic that can be abused in crashes: Earth Shield. ES is obnoxiously efficient even without crashes, and can only be cast around every 30 seconds or so (depending on tank avoidance streaks) anyway, so it's not as huge of a savings as LB.

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Old 07/16/09, 5:38 PM   #243
mako
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
<Bad>
Dragonmaw
Melee and hunters should be able to "bring it home". In 25 man, many of our caster are OoM as the Animus dies so melee finishes vezax off (we run caster heavy).

Even with some mark healing on vezax he should be below 20% after the animus dies, and three healers should mean that there should be enough healer mana remaining to finish the fight.

Are you planning on using two tanks or one? One tank should be able to handle both, although the MT being a death knight would certainly helps the situation.

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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Old 07/16/09, 6:06 PM   #244
Rhaegal
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
One tank, specifically our Paladin. Our two real tanks are the paladin and feral. We do have a DK in our run, and he does have some tank gear for emergencies, but... we try not to make him do anything that requires too much gear or tanking experience. We could have our feral switch out and pick up the Animus in cat gear if the healing on the pally is too bursty, but that's not the plan.

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Old 07/17/09, 12:02 PM   #245
Terlig
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
What about following idea. Retri spec for holy. Solo healing MT with combination of SS/FoL/HL, then at the end of mana, starting to judge JotW to get full mana. At this time other healer heals. When having full mana, other pally casts DI on me, and being ressed by a druid. Will DI remove Corrupted Wisdom?

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Old 07/17/09, 12:47 PM   #246
vorda
Bald Bull
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
You gain corrupted wisdom when you have more than 0 talent points in JotW, even if you never judge.
So no, that would not work.

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Old 07/17/09, 1:20 PM   #247
Alcapwnd
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Draenei Paladin
 
Proudmoore
Question about the Hard Mode encounter that I'm not sure has been answered yet: Do you have to kill the Animus or can you zerg General down before he spawns?

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Old 07/17/09, 1:24 PM   #248
Starfire
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Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
You can do it as Prot Spec with some ridiculously overpowered FoL. Our normally holy pally was doing something like 12k FoL crits as Prot.

With a decent tank, especially with a DK though, a Disc Priest should be enough for the MT. I'd suggest running an unconventional Disc spec though (assuming standard is 57/14+1, go with 54/18 and get Imp. Healing). Then have fun dancing in and out of Shadow Crashes. Go in to cast PoM and PWS, go out to cast Penance.

[e] It has been answered. The achievement is to kill the Animus.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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Old 07/20/09, 3:37 AM   #249
Terlig
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Can anyone confirm that increased absorb from Sacred Shield/PW:S casted from crash still works?

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Old 07/20/09, 5:17 AM   #250
Starfire
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Night Elf Priest
 
Dragonblight
PWS, PoM, Sacred Shield and Earth Shield all gain their full benefit.

Originally Posted by arison View Post
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.

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