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06/17/09, 3:54 AM
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#181
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In gear/DCT lock pin
Human Priest
Alleria (EU)
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Originally Posted by Devimus
Can someone please explain to me the intricacies and the how-to of a disc priest seemingly solo healing all of P1. We are still on normal mode, so, in essence, normal mode is just all P1. There has to be more to it then stand in shadow crash zones and spam shield with penance thrown in. We've had more wipes then I care to admit.
We handle the surges just fine, it's just the normal damage where a tank will spike, and go from 100% to 0% in 2 consecutive hits. We as healers are at our wits end on how to deal with this.
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Regarding tank healing needed, Vezax is pretty much a question of tank gearing and fight length. Vezax hits hard and fast as you noticed. For 10 man, let your tank maximize his gear for mitigation instead of HP for this fight. A few percent additional avoidance is very noticeable. We run Vezax with a Warrior wearing 10 man gear exclusively and no regular tank deaths whatsoever, so going away from HP towards mitigation should work for you, too.
Also note that Vezax seems to have parry haste. I'm not sure this has been verified to be true, but have a look your tank gibs for hits. Have a look at your melee positioning and expertise rating on the part of your tank.
Armor potions (one immediately before pull, second within the fight) also help.
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Clarkson
The simple fact is this. We are told to concentrate more. But we can only do that if we are allowed to go considerably faster.
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06/17/09, 5:26 AM
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#182
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by zarikdon
We've observed the same thing regarding shadow crash timing during critical points like the Animus burn, though we haven't been able to determine if it's just extremely poor luck or if there's something we're not doing right. We typically have 10 people in a ranged camp about 30 yards away or so, and wowhead claims that shadow crash has infinite range, so we don't think it has anything to do with positioning. One of our raiders suggested that it has to do with Vezax randomly selecting a target for shadow crash, checking to see if the target is in melee range (after the minimum ranged requirement is satisfied), and then canceling the cast if the target is in melee range, sort of like how Kalecgos portals would fail to spawn if a player stood too close to a hedge.
Has anyone else experienced this, or come up with a workaround?
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We've had the exact same situation arise a couple times. There are times where there is a steady stream of shadow crashes on ranged and then there you have a dryspell for 30+ seconds. It can really fuck you if you're doing hard mode and it happens during Shadow Animus because I'd imagine for most guilds you can't really beat that part of the fight without near 100% crash uptime. I remember our first really close kill pass on hard mode we had great dps everyone alive and mana was good going into phase 2 and then we just randomly had no crashes for about a minute. From what we've seen there really isn't any way around it except to have enough dps to overcome not having shadow crash the whole time or just wipe it and go again.
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"Oh he's a sad little man? He's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?"
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06/17/09, 5:49 AM
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#183
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Glass Joe
Human Death Knight
Tanaris
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Is this first enrage on a strict one minute timer? I usually save a bit of runic power the first minute or so because I'm not sure when the first enrage will come. But if I pop IBF on the way in will it be up by the time the first enrage comes around? I tend to take a lot of damage the first few seconds before debuffs get up and this would be a good way of mitigating some of it if I know my IBF will be back up by the first enrage.
Last edited by Szarach : 06/17/09 at 5:56 AM.
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06/17/09, 7:55 AM
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#184
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Jaedenar (EU)
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The Disc priest heals p1 by standing in Shadow Crashes and popping shields. He enters p2 with about 40% mana
The Holy Paladin heals in P1 only during surges or when the tank is below 30% health. He enters p2 at 80% mana
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A bit late reply, but this is where your problem lies.
Make your disc priest do nearly nothing in p1 but throw shields on the Mt (from shadow crash) and the occasional penance when a ranged dps messes up alot and is at -15k hp.
Make sure your pala keeps SS up on the tank and just heals with flash (the holy/deep prot build with SA and the spellpower and crit talents is sick on vezax) once your tank drops under 75% or so.
The pala I did it with yesterday had ~32k mana buffed (double int trinkets, no plea) and 7% overheal in the end. All he casted was sacred shield (from shadow crash) and flash of light. No way a disc priest can come close to that mana efficiency.
When p2 is about to start (priest should be on 90% mana here, if done correctly noone takes dmg in p2 that JoL can't heal), make sure the entire raid is shielded, and the priest keeps doing this. In between, inner focus divine hymn and some group healing. Pop Disac at 40% or so.
I must say that with your setup, adding a ret pala will help alot. Strong jol = no healing needed on dps when they do mess up once on shadow crash/mark, extra SS and best of all, extra DiSac.
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06/17/09, 12:06 PM
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#185
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Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Kazzak (EU)
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Originally Posted by Szarach
Is this first enrage on a strict one minute timer? I usually save a bit of runic power the first minute or so because I'm not sure when the first enrage will come. But if I pop IBF on the way in will it be up by the time the first enrage comes around? I tend to take a lot of damage the first few seconds before debuffs get up and this would be a good way of mitigating some of it if I know my IBF will be back up by the first enrage.
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If you pop IBF the first 3-5 seconds into the fight, you will have it back up in time for the first surge. Any later than that and you risk not having it up.
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06/19/09, 2:32 AM
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#186
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Illidan
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Concerning hard mode on 25-man,
Has anyone explored the interaction between Dampen Magic and the animus' Profound Darkness ability? It has low base damage but a stacking shadow damage multiplier, so if Dampen is applied on the base damage but before the multiplier it could drastically reduce raid damage during the animus phase. Even if not, the small healing throughput hit might be worth it to reduce the fast ticking incremental aura damage.
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06/24/09, 8:10 AM
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#187
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Von Kaiser
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As a resto druid, I've done both: Melee for cc procs and also cast lifeblooms from shadow crash. I am positive I can last the entire fight with zero saronite clouds, even though we are only attempting normal mode. But our disc priest seems to always be calling for saronite clouds, and I feel we are missing something that would make this fight trivial.
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Runing in and out the crashes and back to melee range doesnt seem worth the hassle to me.
With meleeing all the time there will be lots of procs and casting lifebloom of a proc will result in a mana gain.
We had a healersetup with 2 Resto druids and a disc Priest and it seemed like we could hold up the tank for most of Phase 1 with cc procs and occasional disc shielding/penance. We healers did not bother with going into the saronite clouds. The risk of spreading marks , having to run and having bad crashes seemed just not worth it.
What did help our Priest a lot was calling out when we were going to Regrowth so he could save Mana instead of worrying of the Tank being at 50%.
Overall the fight seems to be very well tuned fight at least in 10 man.
What I am interessted in is how big the difference in the 25 man version of a Blood DK compared to other Tank classes like for example a feral Druid is?
Invastigating combat logs for incoming damage on different Tanks should be quite significant?
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06/24/09, 9:34 AM
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#188
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Don Flamenco
Undead Mage
Twisting Nether (EU)
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No idea about a DK but I can safely state that a warrior tank is much more fragile than a druid. And yes, the difference is significant; one tank lives through surge+animus, other tank dies randomly in the fight; with the same 3 healers.
Another point is, the fight becomes much, much harder if you try to get the mana buff. I'd go as much to say that hard mode Vezax is in fact easier than the normal mode. Just pop a random cloud if you don't want the hard mode, or well, kill him before Animus or something, but running across the map in order to fill mana is actually more costly than simply sitting at the same concentrated ranged spot, unless your entire dps is in melee.
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06/24/09, 10:17 AM
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#189
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Sylvanas (EU)
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About 10man hard mode, we tried both 2 and 3 healers and 3 healers felt way more stable while damage was still sufficient (25man gear). Our setup:
Feral druid (MT, not kiting)
Prot warrior (Animus, debuffs on boss, interrupting)
Disc priest (shielding from shadow crash)
Resto shaman (saving mana for p2)
Holy paladin (healing in p1)
Rogue
Warrior
Hunter
Mage
Ele shaman
We had Vezax at 30% when p2 came, our hunter died when animus was at 10%, but we still managed to finish Vezax (but it was very very close). In my opinion optimal setup for non-kiting tactics is 3 healers, 1 tank, however it may be gear dependent.
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06/24/09, 5:34 PM
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#190
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Plea
Another point is, the fight becomes much, much harder if you try to get the mana buff. I'd go as much to say that hard mode Vezax is in fact easier than the normal mode. Just pop a random cloud if you don't want the hard mode, or well, kill him before Animus or something, but running across the map in order to fill mana is actually more costly than simply sitting at the same concentrated ranged spot, unless your entire dps is in melee.
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Huh? Even discounting the Animus, having the regen available is a tremendous boon for healers, and ranged DPS almost never need to use it because of the mechanics of shadow crash. For healers, two can easily keep the tank alive, leaving the third time to regen (meaning that healers can use their ordinary healing style instead of cancel casting and so on). Certainly there are advantages to not having to regen, but it seems absurd to me to suggest that the fight is easier if you don't.
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06/24/09, 10:49 PM
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#191
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Don Flamenco
Undead Mage
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Why is it a tremendous boon? They don't need the mana. Animus is what makes hard mode hard, not mana pools themselves.
Running after clouds causes a chaos. You might say that this experience is merely a result of bad players/strat and I have nothing to say against that. All I know is a hard mode try is a very stable one; and clouds add one more thing to worry about into the fight, totally screw up positioning, reduce dps by scattering shadow crushes, intentionally damage people only to get oneshotted by a shadow crush, etc.
Now, hard mode maybe isn't easier, but managing those clouds is one hell of a burden that it makes hard mode look not so hard.
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06/25/09, 5:33 AM
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#192
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Great Tiger
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I have no clue what you are doing to kill clouds. We have someone dps one dead near the melee -- where the healers are normally. Healers step a few steps out and get mana. Done. Not hard, not a lot of management.
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06/25/09, 10:36 AM
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#193
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Piston Honda
Ris
Night Elf Druid
No WoW Account
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Having a deathgrip for clouds removes even the random factor of there being none near melee when the healers want it.
In other news, I'm curious as to whether anyone has solo-healed hard Vezax (until Animus), in 25 or 10, with anything other than a disc priest. (I don't even see how 25-Vezax is solo healable without a lot of luck, no matter the spec.) I can certainly do a bit with clearcasted HoTs as a druid, but that's not always going to keep him up all by itself, and if I get really bad luck with CC procs, I won't last with my current tactic (at least one HoT up at all times; ready to swiftmend/nourish any spikes; autoattack otherwise).
(I neglected to add: we have a paladin solo 10, with me supplementing with CCed HoTs only, so I know that's doable.)
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06/25/09, 10:52 AM
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#194
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Plea what you're seeing with not killing any clouds making it "more stable" maybe has more to do with not kiting him anymore while trying hardmode?
You gain alot of dps from it and healers will never have to move very far.
A healer or two running 15-30 yards from the tank to a cloud can still reach but then if you start kiting in the opposite direction.. things will obviously go bad, though i would think healers would say when they want a cloud and you sort of plan for it anyway.
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06/25/09, 11:22 AM
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#195
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Bald Bull
Orc Death Knight
Whisperwind
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Honestly, I think I agree with Plea up until the point the Animus spawns. Ignoring clouds makes for a much, much more stable fight, at least in 10 mans (havn't gotten to Vezax in 25's yet). 100% of our wipes learning Vezax came from one of two things: Searing Flames not getting interrupted, or healers not healing. The healers weren't healing either because they were out of range because the clouds got killed in bad spots, or because they were running to a cloud. I'm generally our only DK in 10's, so there's no death grip for the clouds, which means healers have to move for the clouds.
We don't wipe on his normal mode any more, but ignoring the clouds is MUCH more controlled. I think if I were recommending how to learn Vezax, I'd recommend killing one cloud to start the fight (to prevent the Animus from spawning), then just ignoring them for the rest of the fight. Not only does that start training everyone for Hard Mode, it removes several points of failure.
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