Regarding glitched vapors, one hypothesis has been that they bug out if they are killed by dots. I observed that a LOT were bugged when I was killing them a few weeks ago in 10 man, then last week we had direct DPS classes kill them and every single one worked. This could certainly use some more confirmation though, so if anyone else has observed the same behavior, feel free to speak up.
Does anyone know if the inability to dodge/parry while casting applies to mobs as well? I am always afraid to go below the expertise cap on General, so i always gimp my stats slightly to get to 26 exprtise. It's always annoying to wipe on General so i rather do not try it myself
Regarding glitched vapors, one hypothesis has been that they bug out if they are killed by dots. I observed that a LOT were bugged when I was killing them a few weeks ago in 10 man, then last week we had direct DPS classes kill them and every single one worked. This could certainly use some more confirmation though, so if anyone else has observed the same behavior, feel free to speak up.
Of cause i can not confirm this 100%, but i realized after reading your observations, that they are identical to mine, when i try to review the evening at Vezax.
Mage + Priest (me) on one side, never had a bugged cloud.
Shadowpriest, Warlock, Holy Paladin and Restro Druid on the other side, complaining that they get one out of three.
In the various attemps, i for one time had to go to the other side, the saronite cloud was dotted by the warlock, and also taken care of by direct spells (can't say what killed it) and this was the only bugged one for me.
Regarding glitched vapors, one hypothesis has been that they bug out if they are killed by dots. I observed that a LOT were bugged when I was killing them a few weeks ago in 10 man, then last week we had direct DPS classes kill them and every single one worked. This could certainly use some more confirmation though, so if anyone else has observed the same behavior, feel free to speak up.
It's also possible that if dots are causing vapor issues, that dot crits are a contributor. We know that dot crits are treated as pseudo-direct-damage spells as far as resilience calculations in PvP are concerned (from a blue post a while back), so it's possible that vapors that die to dot crits are not working right because they use a different mechanic (or perhaps the ones that die to dot crits work, and the ones that die to non-crit dots break). This could also account for the inconsistency where they sometimes work when being killed by dots. Something to investigate, anyway!
Was one of the first theories we came up with and having a warlock only DD spells on them still caused the issue. Location seemed to be the issue with the room though haven't really experimented much to determine if its caused by the unevenness of the floor else than there seemed to be more of an issue towards the center of the room (where its more uneven) but that is pretty anecdotal evidence.
Was one of the first theories we came up with and having a warlock only DD spells on them still caused the issue. Location seemed to be the issue with the room though haven't really experimented much to determine if its caused by the unevenness of the floor else than there seemed to be more of an issue towards the center of the room (where its more uneven) but that is pretty anecdotal evidence.
It could be that pools close to the boss (whom we tanked in the center of the room) don't work? This would prevent healers from avoiding shadow crash entirely while standing in them, so that's a potential reason it could have been done deliberately.
We certainly noticed that there seemed to be a correlation between being close to the boss and not working, although I don't know if that's 100%. Since we tank him in the center, it could also be location based since you got a center problem as well.
From wowwiki, not exactly a concrete source but it probably came from somewhere.
The Saronite Pools will return 0 mana if Vezax is within 15 yards the players in the pool. For the pool to return mana/deal damage, the player must be outside the Shadow Crash "dead zone".
With people spread out into groups, have there been issues with one side of the room not getting enough vapors? Or healers being kept from healing by marks, more of a 10m problem when there aren't any backups.
From wowwiki, not exactly a concrete source but it probably came from somewhere.
With people spread out into groups, have there been issues with one side of the room not getting enough vapors? Or healers being kept from healing by marks, more of a 10m problem when there aren't any backups.
This is false, I've had a 10m kill yesterday where the tank (me) put the boss in the vapors, so healers are in melee range.
This is false, I've had a 10m kill yesterday where the tank (me) put the boss in the vapors, so healers are in melee range.
Concur. I tanked Vezax next to the vapors last Saturday, and the healers were doing just fine with it.
How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?
Concur. I tanked Vezax next to the vapors last Saturday, and the healers were doing just fine with it.
How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?
You just need to run sooner. I rarely get hit, rarely meaning I do still get hit sometimes, but I'd say 1 out of 15kite phases or so I get hit once, most of the time due to my own mistakes(not moving fast enough, not being at full max range before the surge starts casting, fat fingering my mouse turn and not running straight or getting stuck in one of the crappy holes in the ground). Getting hit once is no big deal either, at least as a DK I can just Runetap while running, pop a potion/healthstone if needed, and when he's done with Surge I usually pop my IBF then when repositionning to give healers time. Obviously I could just tank through it, but at least for easy mode, it seems unnecessary to put additional strain on the healers.
He definitely runs slower than you, but the first steps tend to be a bit weird because mobs in motion hit from a bigger range and his size increases when he gains the debuff, so his hitbox also increases. After that though it's easy to notice he runs slower, especially when the debuff drops and he comes zipping at you at full speed. You can use a priest, but that requires no shielding 15secs prior to next surge and the priest being in range, so shouldn't rely on it. If your other tanks can't do it, either use a warrior intervening out or a DK IBF tanking it, those are the easy ways to deal with it.
My guild had our first try on 25m General V tonight, and since I was one of 3 healers in our 10m attempts, I explained it to the other 4 (total of 7 healers). We decided to try to split up the healers on the MT, 3 at first until they ran oom, 3 others after that, with 1 healing the mana users getting into the vapors for mana regen. When the first 3 started healing, the other 4 were spotting just incase the 3 were having issues of whatever kind. Of course that was the plan at first. The first 3 healers' mana was great for quite some time. I ended up calling the switch on healer groups almost immediately after the first Surge of Darkness. But we ended up having to use nearly all the healers when we got to about 40% (unfortunately with the boss getting heals), and burning vapors every 30 seconds to 1 minute because of everyone getting really low. I'm here to ask on a healers perspective: managing 7 healers and making sure we always have heals on the tank, how should this be done? Is splitting up the heals like this ok to do?
Also, after the kiting from Surge of Darkness, is it suggested that the tank stay in the spot that he ends up or move him back to the middle?
How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?
I tend to back up slowly while tanking him in place until i'm at his max hit range, then when the cast comes start immediately legging it(it helps if you have an audio queue for this, that is if you can hear it over sara screaming her sodding head off every 2 minutes). Once out of the 'danger area' of about 10-15 yrds i switch into unholy presence for the movement speed increase if i have the runes available as it helps to edit your new position on the fly if you spot anything that might cause problems(namely healers getting marked on the position you're running to, getting knocked back by shadow crash while on the move, etc). Obviously if your DK tank is specced unholy he doesn't have to worry about any of this because the smarmy bugger always moves at 15% speed increase as long as he's picked up IUP. A lot of the time you'll find you don't even need this because he'll pause to cast flames or throw a couple of shadow crashes around, giving you plenty of breathing room as long as you can get moving fast enough at the start.
Regarding his position: really it depends on what is happening in the fight, i tend to run him from one side of the room to the other mostly depending on where available saronite vapours are and then sit him in place, however you shouldn't be afraid to reposition him once he's finished running if it means your healers will be able to access a saronite cloud more easily.
We got our first 25 man kill on him tonight after a simple change in strategy: We switched from our normal warrior MT to a DK tank. Icebound fortitude was enough to enable the DK to easily survive each Surge and without the need to kite the boss, the fight got much simpler. Removing that big variable made the fight far easier and he went down on I believe the first (maybe second) pull of DK tanking. 2x 3 healer teams rotating - one standing on top of the melee and doing all of the MT and raid healing with the other team mana'ing up in saronite patches.
We use a druid tank and not kite. It's much easier than any kiting strategy, for both healers and melee interrupters. (This is in 25m, so must be doable in 10 too).
My guild had our first try on 25m General V tonight, and since I was one of 3 healers in our 10m attempts, I explained it to the other 4 (total of 7 healers). We decided to try to split up the healers on the MT, 3 at first until they ran oom, 3 others after that, with 1 healing the mana users getting into the vapors for mana regen. When the first 3 started healing, the other 4 were spotting just incase the 3 were having issues of whatever kind. Of course that was the plan at first. The first 3 healers' mana was great for quite some time. I ended up calling the switch on healer groups almost immediately after the first Surge of Darkness. But we ended up having to use nearly all the healers when we got to about 40% (unfortunately with the boss getting heals), and burning vapors every 30 seconds to 1 minute because of everyone getting really low. I'm here to ask on a healers perspective: managing 7 healers and making sure we always have heals on the tank, how should this be done? Is splitting up the heals like this ok to do?
We simply have all healers in melee range. That way our ranged camps always get their shadow crashes (and the curse), while the healers can concentrate entirely on healing (using stopcasting to save mana). After every surge, the DK pulls in one Vapor and kills it right next to the General, so that all healers can get mana without worrying about being bunched up and getting a curse or a shadow crash since they are in melee range.
We simply have all healers in melee range. That way our ranged camps always get their shadow crashes (and the curse), while the healers can concentrate entirely on healing (using stopcasting to save mana). After every surge, the DK pulls in one Vapor and kills it right next to the General, so that all healers can get mana without worrying about being bunched up and getting a curse or a shadow crash since they are in melee range.
That's fine until your casters need mana. If too many are in melee range then shadow crashes and marks start happening in melee range, which can wipe you pretty easily.
Concur. I tanked Vezax next to the vapors last Saturday, and the healers were doing just fine with it.
How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?
In 10 man I simply run as a paladin with pursuit of justice. Got hit once, because I started running too late. Just need to stand at the edge of his hitbox, and start running as soon as he casts.
That's fine until your casters need mana. If too many are in melee range then shadow crashes and marks start happening in melee range, which can wipe you pretty easily.
Not that hard to communicate about stuff like this though. Just make sure your casters know when they are allowed to use clouds.
Hearing conflicting reports about Shadow Resistance on this fight. Both that it's very very bad (you can full resist Saronite Vapor and get no regen) and that it's useful (you can partial/full resist Saronite Vapor damage but the debuff still applies and generates mana).
Right now I'm applying the Razuvious method (SR Aura applied to MCed Understudies, who then had increased heartbeat resist checks) - telling everyone not to use any SR (barring Druid Gift). I'd love to know if it's safe - reduced/resisted damage from people who Can't Run™ from Shadow Crash and during the mana regen will obviously make it easier on general raid healing, which probably means axe a healer for another DPS and a faster fight.
Anyone know for sure whether SR buffs (aura and prayer) are safe?
Note: I can at least rule this out as cause of buggy Vapor. We're only running with Gift, still have no-regen Vapor and when it occurs no one gets any regen on that Vapor, even if they hop in and out multiple times. This guarantees bad Vapor is more than just SR issues (assuming SR chance for no Vapor debuff is even true). I must say, it's terribly frustrating to have a buggy mechanic which is so integral to a fight - we had 3 failed vapor out of 5 on a single attempt.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Kiting as a druid tank is trivial, just shift to cat form and run pretty much anywhere you want. You can actually build enough distance to stop and Rebirth someone if they're in your kite path.
Hearing conflicting reports about Shadow Resistance on this fight. Both that it's very very bad (you can full resist Saronite Vapor and get no regen) and that it's useful (you can partial/full resist Saronite Vapor damage but the debuff still applies and generates mana).
Shadow Resist effects are fine. I wore an extra SR piece so I could push the 8th tick without (hopefully) dying on our first kill. Kind of a crutch for when you're going for hard mode though, so I wouldn't really recommend it for the long-term.
0:04'46.969 Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (4).
0:04'49.031 Silmeriah gains 1600 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
0:04'49.031 nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 2240 Shadow. (960 Resisted)
0:04'49.031 Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (5).
0:04'51.016 Silmeriah gains 3200 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
0:04'51.016 nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 5120 Shadow. (1280 Resisted)
0:04'51.031 Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (6).
0:04'52.984 Silmeriah gains 6400 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
0:04'52.984 nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 9204 Shadow. (1280 Resisted) (2316 Absorbed)
0:04'52.984 Silmeriah is afflicted by Saronite Vapors (7).
0:04'54.984 Silmeriah gains 12800 Mana from nil Saronite Vapors.
0:04'54.984 nil Saronite Vapors hits Silmeriah for 15360 Shadow. (10240 Resisted) #591860
How are non-warrior tanks kiting Vezax during the surge? Or are they just tanking him straight through it? I've found that even with the surge's snare, he runs faster than I do with the boot speed enchant. Do you expect a priest with Body and Soul?
Every tank has an escape method to gain ground while kiting. Intervene (or intercept a vapor), Unholy Presence, kitty sprint, and Pursuit of Justice. Body and Soul is there for the moments something goes wrong, or you can have a hunter Pack you out during cast time. It's a non-issue for good tanks.
Relwin: Besides, the BB is not some ivory tower of WoW knowledge, it's just less stupid here than elsewhere. DeeNogger: Not less stupid, better stupid. The BB takes stupid very seriously. Now if you will excuse me, I have to go misspell the word fire.
A DK tank gives you the option of using Icebound Fortitude on every surge instead kiting the boss. This tremendously simplifies the fight -- we one-shot him the very first time we tried it.
It doesn't take very many cooldowns on any tank to survive. DK tanks obviously can do it themselves.
We used a warrior tank and with his enrage timer at 10 minutes, you've only got to survive 9 of those buffs(if the fight goes that long) 5 of them (#1, #3, #5, #7, and #9) can be dealt with by Shield Wall.
The other 4, the warrior pops his other cooldowns and either Pain Suppression, Guardian Spirit, or the pally buff (I'm sorry, I forget the name) covers it. It's obviously more complicated than a DK, but you've got 2 minutes in between ones healers need to help on, and we just call out in advance which healer is going to be responsible this time (or whether the tank is going to just shield wall it)
Edit:
Once we did that Searing Flames was the only issue. Kiting him just makes that harder. We also ended up asking our Enh. Shaman to stop using Earth Shock in his rotation. It hurt his DPS but he'd screw up the kick timing of the rogues since he'd lock-out only for 2 seconds. The rogue kicking seemed to get much better after that.
05/09/09, 11:49 AM
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