Do healers consider the procs on Egg of Mortal Essence as ~80 haste or Pandora's Plea as ~140 spellpower? No, we simply can't cross our fingers and hope it procs at a useful time. Same goes for this mace; it is not "equal to" 100 spellpower or 5% effective healing. That said, Paladins have the highest chance of procing at a useful time.
Originally Posted by Sitar
That means a lot more proc for a druid.
No, you didn't understand my post either. You cannot have more than 3 Rejuv ticks in 3 seconds, no matter how many people you cast it on.
Paladins have the highest chance of procing at a useful time.
That doesn't make any sense, sorry. You can only argue that paladins have a better use of the proc if you want,( and some will disagree with you on that ) but that's all.
No, you didn't understand my post either. You cannot have more than 3 Rejuv ticks in 3 seconds, no matter how many people you cast it on.
Well, of course you can, 2 rejuv ticking at the same time on 2 different targets give 2 different chances to get a proc. For a druid, in 3 seconds in a perfect world, you can have 15 (rejuv) + 6x3 (WG) = 33 chances to proc if you use only rejuv & WG. If you use lifebloom too, as it ticks every second but lasts only 9 (10 glyphed) seconds, it becomes a bit more complicated to calculate it.
The only procs I put any worth in as a healer are mana regen ones. They're the only clickys I'm any interested in as well, really.
So Ghostcrawler has posted that they think RNG is exciting for healers. I can only imagine they expect that when we have this proc we'll grin widely and gleefully start spamming overheals on everyone we see in order to make those pretty bubbles appear. I'm not sure this is the best way to approach healing, but then I don't work at blizzard.
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law
Just a simple question around the [Val'anyr, Hammer of Ancient Kings] (sorry but I have not still found the answer to it). The person who pick the fragments up is the person who will loot the Val'anyr at the end, right?
I could continue but as you can see and unless i'm completly wrong, with like 10 rejuv running you get 6 rejuv ticks per 3s, not 3. You can get as high as 9 proc chances but this is very unlikely. However, it is very easy to keep up 9-10 rejuvs + full hot on a tank for any druid.
Granted, that does not mean it will proc a lot more for a druid
That doesn't make any sense, sorry. You can only argue that paladins have a better use of the proc if you want,( and some will disagree with you on that ) but that's all.
What? Look at the list of Ulduar encounters. They all have steady damage on the MT and about half have steady raid damage. Thus, it's an obvious conclusion that a MT healer would benefit more often, on average, from this mace's proc. Which class is the best MT healer? Paladin.
Originally Posted by Jalhar
For a druid, in 3 seconds in a perfect world, you can have 15 (rejuv) + 6x3 (WG) = 33 chances to proc if you use only rejuv & WG.
Yeah, nevermind. You're right. What would be a good average then?
Originally Posted by Xunwael
The only procs I put any worth in as a healer are mana regen ones. They're the only clickys I'm any interested in as well, really.
Yup. We can average out mana procs as static mp5 because our mana pool is "never" full. We could average out throughput procs if people had infinite maximum health, which some bosses almost hit tanks hard and fast enough to technically be.
What? Look at the list of Ulduar encounters. They all have steady damage on the MT and about half have steady raid damage. Thus, it's an obvious conclusion that a MT healer would benefit more often, on average, from this mace's proc. Which class is the best MT healer? Paladin.
No, its your own conclusion, based on 2 arguable facts. It is certainly not obvious and in my opinion wrong.
1) MT healing would benefit more : given the fact most of hard modes have steady raid damage and noone cares about easy modes, this is very debatable (let's not speak about experience of many players that tell you that more than half of the time, wipes do not come from MT death but from slow raid death.)
2) Best MT healer is paladin : napkin maths show that raw HPS from a druid on a single target is not very far from paladin's one, let's not speak about burst healing to get a maximum use of the proc. Of course I'm biaised, playing a druid, but I doubt I'm very far from the truth.
Druids have the advantage to go full out raid healing if the proc happens at a right time too. All in one, I think all classes can make a great use of the weapon, differences are minimal. Paladins are probably the class that requires the less playstyle adaptation to the mace, that's all.
Yeah, nevermind. You're right. What would be a good average then?
As said by Sitar, keeping LBx3 on MT, WG up on CD (not best use of it, but hey), and Rejuv on 8-10 targets is quite easy to do, GCD wise. So it's around 28 ticks every 3 seconds. Of course, WG won't always reach 6 targets, some ticks won't heal at all, so I would say in a non trivial encounter (ie the tank is not the only one taking damage), roughly 50-80% of these ticks will happen, depending on the complexity (10% on patchwerk and 100% on mimiron p2 ^^). So a good average would be 15-20 ticks every 3 seconds, meaning proc will happen within 3s from 80 to 90% of the time.
What? Look at the list of Ulduar encounters. They all have steady damage on the MT and about half have steady raid damage. Thus, it's an obvious conclusion that a MT healer would benefit more often, on average, from this mace's proc. Which class is the best MT healer? Paladin.
I believe you will find the amount of encounters in the entire game that do not have "steady damage on the MT" is quite low. That's an entirely useless argument. That the mace proc benefits tank healers more than raid healers is a pretty trivial conclusion and anyone who ever healed in a raid environment would attest to that.
The idea that "paladins are the best MT healer", however, is rather outdated. Surely paladins have the big numbers going for them, but disc priests definately better on a MT than paladins as their shields are pro-active instead of reactive which leaves room to respond to spikes. Druids can put some crazy HPS on a tank as well and since overheals actually add to the shield as well, HoT's are very beneficial for this purpose. To make it better, druids can most of this *while moving* and throw some HoT's around on the raid in a free GCD.
I'm personally convinced no healer class (barring disc priest) gets significantly less mileage out of that proc than the others. If anything, druids have the advantge here; not paladins. Sure, Paladins have this "on demand throughput" that is very strong on damage spikes (Mimiron's Plasma Blast comes to mind), but that strength has exactly zero synergy with a random proc. Druids, on the other hand, have a more linear healing output which has a very strong synergy with a proc as it doesn't really matter when it procs.
So the big schtick of the healer legendary is an uncontrollable clicky trinket proc. It's been mathed out in other places that the proc is worth roughly 80 spellpower when the buff is averaged out over the length of the fight. This is not impressive.
What is the source of this "math"? My calculations doesn't match that at all. The shield should be a thoughtput increase of about 4% over time, which puts it at ~160 spellpower for a shaman. Considering shields cannot overheal and overhealing is normally around 40-50% depending on the encounter, it's value could be up to 300 spellpower. Obviously that depends on how much of the shields are wasted and that is heavily dependant on what fight we're talking about. 80 spellpower would assume 75% of the shields are wasted and that doesn't seem realistic.
I believe you will find the amount of encounters in the entire game that do not have "steady damage on the MT" is quite low. That's an entirely useless argument.
That's exactly why it isn't a useless argument. A MT will always benefit from the proc because every fight has more damage coming for the MT. Not every fight has more damage coming for the raid, and even less have truly deadly raid damage.
Originally Posted by Lucinde
Druids, on the other hand, have a more linear healing output which has a very strong synergy with a proc as it doesn't really matter when it procs.
With this line, we're back the idea that the proc is always an increase. It's not. The 8 second shield has to be consumed before it can be considered a benefit. Actually, it has to be consumed and affect the outcome of the fight to be considered a benefit. On a MT healer* the shield will always be consumed and will always affect the outcome of the fight. At worst, it would just save the Paladin a few thousand mana by the end. On a raid healer, the shield isn't guaranteed to be consumed nor is it guaranteed to affect the outcome. With all of the HoTs/CH/PW:S/PoM/PoH/CoHs being thrown around in raids, small and uncontrollable shields will not change your raid's healing on most fights. There are obviously some moments where the proc would be amazing for raid healing, but most require lucky timing on the proc, and luck should not be a factor of healing.
*Yes, Disc Priests are great MT healers. But, like you said yourself, the proc is significantly worse for them. And Druids cannot get anywhere close to a Paladin's single target HPS without spamming Nourish, which counters your point that they're mobile and have spare time to throw around HoTs on the raid.
And Druids cannot get anywhere close to a Paladin's single target HPS without spamming Nourish, which counters your point that they're mobile and have spare time to throw around HoTs on the raid.
His point is, druids have more versatility in the use of the proc, being able to do moving aoe raid healing OR if needed same HPS (thus same shield) on a tank as a paladin.
Furthermore,
The 8 second shield has to be consumed before it can be considered a benefit. Actually, it has to be consumed and affect the outcome of the fight to be considered a benefit. On a MT healer* the shield will always be consumed and will always affect the outcome of the fight. At worst, it would just save the Paladin a few thousand mana by the end.
I totally disagree with that. You would be surprised to know the huge overhealing tanks get. As MT healing has to be proactive, players won't stop casting because some random shield is up on the MT. So the proc won't save any mana at all and actually won't change MT healing at all. The only use of the proc on the MT is when shield prevents the MT from dying of a sudden damage spike, that otherwise would have killed him, and you're back on the luck dependant proc, and exact same use of the mace as in raid healing. Disc priest shields are far more reliable to counter predictable high damage sources (Sarth3D breath for example) than this mace.
Then again, this mace is NOT meant to predictabily affect the outcome of a fight. No legendary was meant to do that. You should keep in mind they are made to satisfy players and their dreams of super shiny loot, nothing more, nothing less.
There's little doubt in my mind that a MT healer will get more out of this than a Raid healer. There isn't always raid dmg (and even when there is it isn't always significant, urgent or a drain) and that damage isn't always predictable.
class/spec HPS is important, but so is mana efficiency. Yes, a priest can spam POH to maximize his or her HPS, but at what cost? Ideally, the spells used to power up the bubble should be as natural as possible. If you've managed to build up the bubble to its full potential but drained half your mana in the process, are you really ahead?
Its clear that anyone, except disc priests, will be able to take advantage of the proc. The question that hasn't been answered is if 1 particular spec (holy paladins appearing to be the front runners) will benefit so much more from it, that guilds will give it to them, rather than the person who deserves it (this will vary from guild to guild as well I assume).
Raid healing is an important (sometimes the most important) facet of many fights, and can't be discounted simply because "it's not in every fight, like tank damage!"
While Discipline priests may get slightly less benefit from the proc, that observation isn't incredibly relevant since a respec (which can take <5 seconds w/ dual spec) totally changes that.
I can't imagine that this proc will be something so huge as to change a guild's mind about who receives it. It is more a status symbol and a reward than a super healing tool.
What is the source of this "math"? My calculations doesn't match that at all. The shield should be a thoughtput increase of about 4% over time, which puts it at ~160 spellpower for a shaman. Considering shields cannot overheal and overhealing is normally around 40-50% depending on the encounter, it's value could be up to 300 spellpower. Obviously that depends on how much of the shields are wasted and that is heavily dependant on what fight we're talking about. 80 spellpower would assume 75% of the shields are wasted and that doesn't seem realistic.
The absolute max throughput you can manage with this is 15% for 1/3 of the time. This is only possible in a perfect world when healing a target with infinite life taking constant damage. In a bounded world where the target has a hard maximum HP value the increase to healing throughput rapidly drops towards zero. Basically if you are in a situation where each heal returns the tank to full the only actual increase in healing throughput is the average value of the shield as what happens is that the shield defers overhealing to the next swing. In addition given the nature of the proc you will only have it up for 25% of the time. 25% of 15 is 3.75% and assuming that you are in perfect conditions and have 3k spellpower raid buffed this works out to be equivalent to 112.5 spellpower boost over the course of the fight. This is slightly more than achieved by enchanting a staff. Note this is in hypothetically fully efficient situations. Using Divine Aegis as a model we see that even when tank healing Aegis frequently falls off, as 12 sec no hit streaks arn't that uncommon even on tanks. So this lowers the total output further.
Although it is common practice to consider shields as effective healing the in fact are not equivalent. They are mitigation or effective life extension, not healing. lets consider a tank healing situation where we have 1 healer proccing this mace and healing up the tank. This is a simplified model but it makes the point.
Tank with 40k hp
0.00 healer procs mace
1.00 tank hit for 12,000 damage
3.00 healer lands 15,000 k heal and procs 2250 bubble
4.00 tank hit for 12,000 damage and takes 9750 damage
5.00 healer lands 15,000 heal procs another bubble of 2250
7.00 tank takes another 12k with 0750 getting though
9.00 healer land 15k heal procs bubble
10.00 tank takes 12k mitigated to 9750
12.00 healer lands 15k heal with 2250 bubble
13.00 tank dodges
14.99 healer lands 15k heal with 2250 bubble stacking to 4500
buff fades
In this case the healer has healed/mitigated 48k damage and has a residual shield out there for the next hit of 4500
if the healer had not had the mace they would have still healed the 48k damage, the tank would still end the sequence at full health but would not have a shield against the next hit. This is 9.3% improvement in heals/shields for the duration of the buff, not the 15% simple maths would expect. If the tank had not dodged that last hit it would only have been a 3.75% increase for the 15 second duration. Note that this applies to all healing. Now this is not the same as saying that shields are bad in fact they are point for point far superior to healing as it prevents the damage totally but this is why the throughput increase from the proc is far less than you might expect. If you were crazy enough to keep the tank below 100% life for the entire fight then yes you would get the full value of the proc but as soon as the tank hits the hp cap the value of shields to increase throughput nosedives.
Is it not possible to consider that the different classes, with different styles of healing, will be able to make different but equally effective uses of this proc? You would want it in the hands of your highest effective healer. More effective healing -> more procs -> more benefit from the proc. The smartest healer would best make use of the proc. It's not a question of class or spec (minus Disc priests).
Paladins, not having a hot, have considerably less opportunity to proc the effect. They are also patently inferior for raid healing (no PoH, CoH, or WG). And just because they are at their best when MT healing doesn't mean they are the best MT healers. I would want the MT healer to have this mace for fights like Council and Razor (MT likely to die) but I wouldn't give a flip on fights like Auriaya or XT or even Hodir (others more likely to die than the MT).
A raid healer is typically healing the MT as well (my WWS and recount always show raid healers having a small % healed on the MT higher than everyone else). Or if they aren't, when they proc the mace they can heal the MT in addition to healing the raid. Someone who thinks that raid shields on multiple raid members is not going to good use must also think that Rejuvenating raid members is poor strategy. But that's not what a lot of druids think. Someone who just took damage is likely to take damage again (if they weren't, why am I trying to heal them to full??). That' the case in Auriaya. That's the case in Hodir. That's the case in Council and that's the case in any healing intensive fight where this mace will shine brightest. A good chunk of fights involve massive single-target healing on some raid member who isn't a tank and trying to keep them alive (Razorscale, Ariaya, can occur during Freya). The value is in simply having this mace present in your raid. It's likely to (help) save someone in such a situation.
The MT will definitely benefit from having this shield on them. I think any smart healer with this mace will be dropping a Blessed heal on this MT asap. Most of the math in this thread and conclusions that have been made prior to discussion of this mace would put it in the hands of your most effective healer, regardless of class or spec. We should probably be discussing situations to adjust individual healing strategies when the mace procs rather than who should get the mace. Most guilds have already made that declaration anyway.
Edit: an example of a "smart" use would be raid healing on Council, procing the mace, doing a NS+HT on the MT right before/on a Fusion Punch and going about your raid healing.
I think the overall best solution anyone will come up with in this thread in regards to which class should get it will be that it should go to the player(class) who deserves it the most. Given that most of the math can be skewed to favor any one class bar disc priests it would seem.
The interesting debate between paladins and druids is really moot as they both excel in different areas of healing (which of course cross over), bearing in mind there has been no mention of limitations on healing with this mace in regards to Glyphs and Mechanics it is entirely possible that you could get a double up mirror effect for paladins using BoL on an offtank in which the shield double stacks (assuming they are both taking damage) which could prove extremely powerful (from a paladin perspective anyway).
I don't think the multitude of ways people are working out the proc chance are overly valid in a 'who gets it' scenario because as some people have pointed out most classes can pump out 10 heals (or a 100% chance to get the mace to proc) in very little time in which case it then comes down to how much healing you can EFFECTIVELY heal in that 15 seconds.
From a Paladin perspective I'd be interested to see if JoL procced the shield (i can't see why it wouldn't) in which case it might be possible for holy paladins to throw out a JoL when the mace procs and build up smaller shields as well as the JoL heal on heavy raid fights. If you had good communication with a ret paladin you could get them to judge wisdom for 1-2 judgements during this period (through a /tell macro associated to the JoL).
Fantastic mace at any rate, huge props to anyone who gets it because i'm sure 95% of them will be deserving of owning it
I can't say that I'm convinced that it is 'legendary.' The fact that the proc is hampered by a 45s ICD means that under reasonable raiding conditions, a player can expect to have a 1/4 uptime, on average. 3/4 of the time, the player does not have the additional throughput, which means that you have a very large window where you could lose players.
Other weapons in Ulduar seem to be sidegrades. Staff of Endless Winter and Constellus come to mind.
I've attached a spreadsheet which does some extremely simple simulation of the proc. You can test spamming a single spell with it, or test what effect it would've had if you had used it on a raid, given WWS output.
I feel that the best use of this weapon will result in me swapping it out during the ICD. That doesn't seem very legendary in nature :P.
The only convincing argument you can make for swapping the weapon out is to go to the Staff of Endless Winter for the massive spirit/regen boost.
But even so, you would lose 2 global-cooldowns on the swap and for a side-grade that hardly seems worth it.
I think at this point you're just downplaying the weapon because you think it sucks. And while the proc may or may not suck (though I am in the camp thinking it sucks) the fact is the weapon based on it's stats alone is very sound. There are only two alternatives to it and you should be happy this one is orange and not just purple.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Try it. Was fixed either in BT or Sunwell. Actually, I think it was fixed during S4 when people realized how uber the haste weapon would be with weapon swaps during the GCD.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Try it. Was fixed either in BT or Sunwell. Actually, I think it was fixed during S4 when people realized how uber the haste weapon would be with weapon swaps during the GCD.
You try it. You can't switch weapons while casting or channeling a spell, but you can switch them during a GCD after an instant spell. With a macro, this will activate extra GCD time approximately equivalent to your ping.
What is the source of this "math"? My calculations doesn't match that at all. The shield should be a thoughtput increase of about 4% over time, which puts it at ~160 spellpower for a shaman. Considering shields cannot overheal and overhealing is normally around 40-50% depending on the encounter, it's value could be up to 300 spellpower. Obviously that depends on how much of the shields are wasted and that is heavily dependant on what fight we're talking about. 80 spellpower would assume 75% of the shields are wasted and that doesn't seem realistic.
I personally calculated the proc to be worth about 80 sp to a holy priest, assuming 20% uptime and 50% of the shields being wasted. Holy priest spells like PoH have very high spellpower coefficients, which contributes to a lower effective spellpower for the proc. The best possible case for a holy priest would be a little over 200 sp.
I'd imagine those calculations would vary considerably for other classes, though.
For paladin the proc can significantly decrease the risks involved in using Divine Plea.
Ultimately most first kills on any hard encounter require some degree of luck and the proc does increase your chances of getting lucky. If you have it up for tantrum on XT-002 then maybe you can skip using Avenging Wrath (or divine sacrifise, or whatever equivalent your class has). If you can use the proc to have a *chance* at not burning other cooldowns then that in itself can be a pretty significant factor.
For paladin the proc can significantly decrease the risks involved in using Divine Plea.
Ultimately most first kills on any hard encounter require some degree of luck and the proc does increase your chances of getting lucky. If you have it up for tantrum on XT-002 then maybe you can skip using Avenging Wrath (or divine sacrifise, or whatever equivalent your class has). If you can use the proc to have a *chance* at not burning other cooldowns then that in itself can be a pretty significant factor.
Except that the effectiveness of the proc will be halved, as well.
05/07/09, 8:54 AM
) but that's all.
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