Thanks, given your 4,663,806 raw healing and 29% uptime (high from what I have seen of other logs) the total accredited to the shield seems about right but does assume 100% shield usage.
The reason you are getting 20% out of the shield is that you have 80% overhealing, the more actual healing done the less the shield will contribute to your performance. if the same proc had occured to your holy priest Kinsie it would have generated only 9% of thier actual healing. The other issue is how many of the shield procs actually got used which sadly we can't track. Not having done hard mode Mim how many people will take further damage within the 8 second window? my experience of divine Aegis is that a supprisingly high % of shields are not consumed.
I'm fairly confident that GuessedAbsorbs only tracks used shields (as combat logs say X absorbed) so that would all be effective.
Yeah, the more raw healing the better off the mace is for sure. It's definitely way better in the hands of a paladin right now, who really knows after 3.2 with our nerfs though. I can see it dropping by about 5% effectiveness at least for me.
That example is really the prime example for the mace though. You have a variety of situations that heavily favor it including massive tank damage in phase 1 with plasma blast (I usually have 2 mace procs right as it's owning the tank and it's all used, which is nice) and in phase 2 I'm topping off a group of people and the HL glyph splashes to everyone while they're taking fire AOE damage and laser bursts.
P3 and 4 are just decent for the proc but the damage is still consistent (head plasma ball damage).
As an aside I'm not really happy that the mace heavily favors overhealing even if I am the class that overheals the most. It's like anti-logic or something that it gets better the more you spam mindlessly.
As an aside I'm not really happy that the mace heavily favors overhealing even if I am the class that overheals the most. It's like anti-logic or something that it gets better the more you spam mindlessly.
I wouldn't say that the mace favors overhealing. The problem with your comparison is that you are comparing shield value as a percentage of effective healing instead of just total shield value. If the shields will mostly get used no matter what (like on most of Mimiron Hard Mode), the percentage of your effective healing that comes from the shields increases as your overhealing increases. This is because the value of the shields is based on effective healing + overhealing. So increasing the percentage of overhealing doesn't affect the value of the Val'anyr shields, it just decreases effective healing from normal spells so increases the percentage of effective healing that comes from the shields.
Originally Posted by Crowl
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.
I wouldn't say that the mace favors overhealing. The problem with your comparison is that you are comparing shield value as a percentage of effective healing instead of just total shield value. If the shields will mostly get used no matter what (like on most of Mimiron Hard Mode), the percentage of your effective healing that comes from the shields increases as your overhealing increases. This is because the value of the shields is based on effective healing + overhealing. So increasing the percentage of overhealing doesn't affect the value of the Val'anyr shields, it just decreases effective healing from normal spells so increases the percentage of effective healing that comes from the shields.
That's an... interesting way to look at it I suppose. It still favors overhealing, and yes, it was used in an ideal situation in Mimiron to the tune of preventative effective healing with the HL glyph splash and it appears to inflate the effectiveness of the weapon. I mostly posted to show how effective it CAN be (as a percentage of effective healing). It is a bit ridiculous that one must overheal that much to get a lot out of it.
My primary shield almost always gets used on any fight (tank healing paladin POV), and that for sure favors overhealing. I suppose that's just another reason why a raid healer is less effective with the mace, there may not be "guaranteed" incoming damage if they are primarily healing the raid. Most Ulduar hard fights have some sort of regular raid damage though, so the fights mostly ensure that a larger shield on several raid targets will be consumed. Entirely fight dependent though.
Even from my POV I find that an orange that scales with high throughput + overhealing is a stupid thing for Blizzard to implement. For a healing item that is supposed to be the best in the game for a long period of time, they can do better. They designed it entirely from a DPS itemization viewpoint.
Val'anyr scales with throughput, not with overhealing. Here's a chart showing how thinking that Val'anyr scales with overhealing is misleading. This is in a very simplified case of 2 heals for 100 HP, the first of which procs Val'anyr (so the second generates a 15 HP shield).
Overhealing (%)
Effective Healing from spells
Effective healing from Val'anyr Shield
Percentage of Total Effective healing from Val'anyr Shield
0%
200
15
7%
25%
150
15
9%
50%
100
15
13%
75%
50
15
23%
90%
20
15
43%
99%
2
15
88%
As you can see, more overhealing doesn't result in more effective healing (damage prevention) from shields from Val'anyr, it just inflates the percentage. The only thing that Val'anyr Shield effectiveness scales with is the total healing (including overhealing) output during the proc. This is all assuming that all shields actually get used up, of course. During a proc, it is in your best interest to overheal if the shields will be used up, but saying that this means that it favors overhealing seems a little overblown to me.
Originally Posted by Crowl
If you have to control a robot dinosaur that fires lazers and there's a time when you shouldn't be shooting those lazers then the encounter is clearly flawed beyond hope of fixing.
That chart does a good job of explaining your point. Mimiron is a fight that paladins typically see much less effective healing than other classes on due mostly due to AE damage in phase 2.
On a fight like Algalon a paladin is going to think Val'anyr is less useful due to the much higher effective healing obtained, and the amount it does as a percentage of effective will be much lower.
I guess (?) saying it scales with overhealing is misleading since this caveat exists, but only if you think of it as a percentage of effective (which I did present to the post). The proc definitely gets more mileage out of high throughput (effective or not) when up and for the most part paladins seem to be the king of throughput in 3.1.
Zoning in on P2, which ensures most shields are used due to the pervasive fire nova: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
* Protection of Ancient Kings: 92259
First Val'anyr proc WWS split: Wow Web Stats - 125330 total healing output
Second Val'anyr proc WWS split: Wow Web Stats - 205524 total healing output
The theoretical absorb value should then be: (.15)(125330) + (.15)(205524) = 49627, half of the reported WoL absorb value
Digging a little deeper, let's see who used the shields:
WoL: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
* Protection of Ancient Kings on myself (I beacon myself in P2 as a point of context): 12474
* Protection of Ancient Kings on Duoctane: 936
Using the Val'anyr WWS splits above:
* Total healing on myself respectively: 23,086 + 34,884 = 57970, or an expected potential 8695 absorbs
* Total healing on Duoctane respectively: 0 + 4084 = 4084 or an expected 613 potential absorbs
There's a lot more digging to be done here (e.g, rather than cross-referencing against WWS, split to the Val'anyr procs in WoL directly to see what its reported values are). Assuming WWS is accurate in its total healing, it appears that either WoL inflates the absorb value or the 15% in the tooltip is incorrect (very likely that WoL is inflating due to the testing nature of the absorb parser). It would be one thing if WoL was reporting a lesser absorb value than that which would be possible, but the fact that its values exceed the theoretical maximum either points to a problem.
I'm using mostly an empirical look; if anyone wants to do a mathematical approach, by all means. My next step is likely to set up some type of test to validate the 15% number listed in the tooltip just to get that unknown off the table.
* Item Level has been increased from 239 to 245
* Stamina has been increased from 52 to 55
* Intellect has been increased from 54 to 57
* Spell Power has been increased from 587 to 621
* Critical Strike Rating has been increased from 47 to 50
* Haste Rating has been increased from 46 to 49
It's a buff all right but I still suspect that many healers would prefer the hard mode 701 spellpower weapons to this because of the erratic nature of the proc. No mention of whether or not they have fixed the known bugs with hots etc.
Val'anyr, Hammer of Ancient Kings: This item's stats and level have been increased to match the power level of healer weapons coming from the Coliseum 25-person normal difficulty instance. In addition, each time Val'anyr is equipped, Blessing of Ancient Kings will be placed on a 45-second cooldown before it can occur.
Clearly they don't want weapon swapping for the proc effect.
Pala of my guild did some tests:
- Sacred Shield spamming procs it
- beacon spamming doesn't proc it
- rezz spamming doesn't proc it (we were bored)
- overhealing doesn't proc it (old news)
- blessing spam doesn't proc it
- JoL does not proc it
So it boils down to: SS and any effective direct healing.
I'm also wondering of WoL is parsing the proc healing correctly, because it seems we (or at least I) have underestimated the mace proc a bit in that case. In an entire night of Ulduar, it's about 15% effective healing, topping to 25% on most high AoE dmg bossfights.
edit: he just did loatheb, you can proc it with SS and just spam HL during the aura and people will get shields it seems.
edit2: as the posters behind me say, it procs from overhealing. My mistake.
The hammer definitely procs off of direct heals which are 100% overheal; I was pretty sure this was the case, but I just logged on my Paladin to double check and spammed some heals on myself in Orgrimmar. I believe it is HoTs which are 100% overheal that do not cause it to proc.
It definitely procs from overhealing with direct healing. Just to re-affirm.
Going to add one more piece of random facts: once you receive the buff, you can swap weapons and will keep the buff. (Of course you lose a GCD by swapping the weapon).
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
The hammer definitely procs off of direct heals which are 100% overheal; I was pretty sure this was the case, but I just logged on my Paladin to double check and spammed some heals on myself in Orgrimmar. I believe it is HoTs which are 100% overheal that do not cause it to proc.
The problem is hots which are 100% overheal are not logged or registered at all.
Anyways, here's some number for holy priest healing:
Can people please stop linking World of Logs parses until they have fixed the well documented flaws in how they estimate the effects. All the usual flaws and artefacts are present in the linked parses. You generally need to drop the contribution from the hammer by 30% or more because of flaws in how they record things.
That said the most obvious flaw using the thorim parse is that to get a shield size of 1441.7 on average the heal proccing it needs to be 9600. this is far far more than any holy spell save greater heal can generate. If you look at the procs on yourself it is even worse, you procced it 3 times for an average of 2360 each, this requires an activating heal of 15733 which is patently idiotic. I could go on in this vein for a while but I don't want to bore everyone to tears, if you want to know more about these flaws send me a private tell.
But the effect stacks... So you don't need 1 Greater Heal for 9600, you could do two Flash Heals that combine for 9600. The parser does not count additional stacks as far as I know.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
He's still probably right. From what I can tell, 25% uptime is about right. So 25% * 15% = 3.75% increase healing on average assuming all shields are used.
If the effect is stacking it means that the player is not taking sustained damage greatly increasing the chance that the shield will be totally invalid. Especially using smart heals it is very rare that you need to heal someone twice if they are not taking constant damage. 8 seconds is not very long in any raid. As a disc priest tank healing it is by no means uncommon for the TANK to have 8 second periods of no incomming damage so for raid members it is much much higher.
In the parse I was linking to before the total absorbed is about right IF all shields are consumed and ALL the heals procced shields but as it has been established that Divine Hymm and PoM do not proc the heals that is about 20% of the total healing incapable of proccing the shields and these are the tools that do the most heavy lifting in critical situations where the proc is of most value..
This mace just got incredibly fun for a druid. The blessing itself still only procs on keypresses, as I like to put it (every healing-keypress can proc it, finished casts for cast-time heals of course), but after 3.2 - when overhealing hots actually tick, the shields are finally building off overhealing hots. It feels alot more ... "coushiny" when it procs now (bigger shields).
Pre-patch: if you WGd a bunch of 100% people with the blessing up = no shields.
Post-patch: if you WG a bunch of 100% people, 6 shields pop up on the first tick - and builds as the WG goes.
I wonder if it works with Divine Hymn (and Prayer of Mending) now. Does it work with Tranquility?
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
Val’anyr, Hammer of The Ancient Kings: This item’s special bonus now works properly with Prayer of Mending and the heal-over-time effect triggered by Flash of Light cast on Sacred Shield targets.
Is it possible to bring two people with 30 fragments each in on one Yogg kill, and get two maces? !!
A healer in my guild just got her 30th fragment and a good friend in another guild (one that stopped raiding for the most part, school) just got his 30th as well. It would be nice to get these at the same time with the release of TOC heroic our time in Ulduar will dwindle.
Is it possible to bring two people with 30 fragments each in on one Yogg kill, and get two maces? !!
A healer in my guild just got her 30th fragment and a good friend in another guild (one that stopped raiding for the most part, school) just got his 30th as well. It would be nice to get these at the same time with the release of TOC heroic our time in Ulduar will dwindle.
The quest is on the playerside. There are some possible complications though, its possible both will be able to "Throw" the item, but Yogg may only have one item able to be looted on his corpse. Worst case the 2nd person wouldn't be able to loot it, they wouldn't lose their work to that point.
07/08/09, 6:34 PM
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