Been looking to find an answer to this for awhile- with two Val'anyrs in the raid, would they each place a separate Protection of Ancient Kings buff on a single target, or would their heals (while Blessing is up on both healers) contribute to the same Protection of Ancient Kings buff? Also, if it is the latter, how is this parsed in the combat log? (i.e. who is this "meta-shield" attributed to)
(I seem to remember a blue post talking about multiple Val'anyrs, but I can't find it ><)
Been looking to find an answer to this for awhile- with two Val'anyrs in the raid, would they each place a separate Protection of Ancient Kings buff on a single target, or would their heals (while Blessing is up on both healers) contribute to the same Protection of Ancient Kings buff? Also, if it is the latter, how is this parsed in the combat log? (i.e. who is this "meta-shield" attributed to)
(I seem to remember a blue post talking about multiple Val'anyrs, but I can't find it ><)
I don't know about separate shields or not but I can tell you that in the logs absorb affects are not directly attributed to anyone. Log parsers make guesses based on who last contributed to the shield. When speaking of WoL, the Val'anyr shield is known to "eat" the contribution of other shields.
Starting in 3.2 there was a change made to the API to allow addons to check how much was left of any shield shown as a buff but none of that info is ever put into the combat logs. So addons are now able to track and attribute shields if they carry that sophistication, but log parsers are still just guessing.
Edit
From the priest Q&A:
Q: Are there plans to ensure absorption mechanics are properly displayed and stored in the combat log in the near future?
Ghostcrawler: Technically, we can’t attribute absorption to the caster correctly. We know who cast the spell, but we can’t display easily which of the absorptions counts when there are multiple absorptions on a target. The change we made for 3.2 was to show how much damage was left on each absorption effect before and after the damage was done. This should allow third-party addons to figure out which absorb effect goes with which caster and properly credit them for it. The answer, I suspect they will find, is that shields actually prevent a lot of damage. We have seen priests prevent as much damage as they healed.
Second Edit
I have now been told that while the Priest Q&A (released Aug 3) mentioned this change coming in patch 3.2 (released Aug 4), this did not actually take place. I simply assumed that changes mentioned the day before release would come to pass. Truly the left hand and the right hand have no idea what the other is doing.
Last edited by Tinwhisker : 09/10/09 at 3:42 PM.
Reason: adding the GC quote; refuting the quote
Yea, I was gonna add, I've also been looking around for a mod to show me the current Protection of Ancient Kings shield amount on my target (specifically via Grid) and the closest thing I could find was GridStatusShields which, apparently, is bugged for PoAK and just shows a constant "0" for the current shield left. Also, it can only accurately show YOUR current shields on targets, aka if you're a disc priest it will show your Divine Aegis and PW:S shields, but it shows odd numbers for other priests' shields.
I was excited when GC posted they would FINALLY include a function to show absorbs left of a shield buff(something like "GetShieldLeft()" would be pretty awesome) but yea, definitely isn't in the API yet =/
I run a casual guild, raiding about 8 hours a week. We've only just now killed Yogg for the first time. Our future Vala'nyr healer has 14 fragments, and we're trying to think of the best strategy to quickly get him the rest of his fragments.
The question is this: focus on clearing Ulduar each week for the guaranteed fragment drop from Yogg, or take some extra time to practice some hard modes for the greater chance of a fragment -- even if it means having to extend the raid lockout another week? Basically I'm wondering just how much more often fragments drop in hard mode, and whether it's worth the time to learn them at this point, when we're already clearing ToC and won't be needing any gear from Ulduar other than a few isolated pieces.
The best strategy (for your guild) is to continue to full clear Ulduar weekly. If you are running ahead of schedule, devote an hour or two to learning one of the easier hardmodes: FL, Decon, Hodir. But just make sure every boss is killed weekly.
The hardmode Fragment drop could potentially be 15%, slightly higher than 10% off normal bosses. The increase is not really enough to warrant extending the lockout for the purpose of doing hardmodes to get more fragments (especially if the guild in question hasnt done any hardmodes prior).
With that said, many people might have preferred that Blizzard designed Val'anyr to be more easily obtainable via hardmodes (and harder to form via normal kills). If the drop rate on fragments was 3% off normal bosses, but 30% of hardmodes - we would have a much more compelling choice to make - and you would indeed see more guilds extending lockouts and devoting more time to learning hardmodes.
Which keeper would you choose to ignore for getting the mace? If sanity wouldn't be a problem, then obviously Freya IMO, but it will be a problem in case of my guild. Hodir? Maybe Mimiron?
Which is why you should lose Hodir. He may save the occasional unlucky person from tentacle rape, but most of what he does is save people who aren't paying attention - usually the meter chasers whose DPS makes you think you can cope without Mimiron. A well-coordinated raid of aware people will hardly notice a difference between +4 and +3 sans Hodir.
Which is why you should lose Hodir. He may save the occasional unlucky person from tentacle rape, but most of what he does is save people who aren't paying attention - usually the meter chasers whose DPS makes you think you can cope without Mimiron. A well-coordinated raid of aware people will hardly notice a difference between +4 and +3 sans Hodir.
We tried both leaving Mimiron and Hodir up top and we found that leaving Mimiron was drastically easier. In p1 you can occasionally get situations where Sara drops the double damage taken debuff on a melee or tank just an instant before a death explosion and suddenly you have someone dead who didn't even have a second to register that they need to run. Same in p2, occasionally you will get a Constrictor Tentacle that grabs the last dpser on a side just before they go to the Brain room and they get dead. I have even been killed in stable p3 situations when a add spawns in the raid and 1 shots me because of consecrate being down.
All of those situations make having Hodir incredible even if your raid is excellent. You can do a tremendous amount to mitigate random gibs on Yogg but there are a few extremely dangerous situations that can be very hard to deal with and Hodir makes them simply not an issue.
Mimiron obviously is really useful on p2 to lower the incoming spam of debuffs, but lowering damage taken does make it safer and easier for the people in the Illusion to dps without risk of dying and gives the people upstairs a bit of a cushion. All told if the entire fight was p2 I would park Hodir, but since p1 and p3 both have situations where Hodir's iceblock is very key we found Hodir helping substantially better than Mimiron.
Which is why you should lose Hodir. He may save the occasional unlucky person from tentacle rape, but most of what he does is save people who aren't paying attention - usually the meter chasers whose DPS makes you think you can cope without Mimiron. A well-coordinated raid of aware people will hardly notice a difference between +4 and +3 sans Hodir.
It seems to me that if you have a well-coordinated raid of aware people, then you might as well get rid of Freya. People should be able to manage their sanity.
All of those situations make having Hodir incredible even if your raid is excellent.
I'm sure, but the requirement for Val'anyr is Three Lights, not One Light. There are guilds making slower progress who have the nous to do Three Lights without Hodir but don't yet have the gear to do it without Mimiron.
I had this discussion with myself when I got close to 30 pieces, and as an RL I also thought Hodir would be the easy way out - seeing that he "only saves noobs".
What I didn't know at that time that Hodir also gives you the 20% less damage taken buff, which is a killer in p1 for melee who's used to soak explotions, and we also had quite some trouble with tankgibs in p3 - but that got sorted with Aura Mastery in the end.
Anyway, on the second mace we left out Mimiron. Didn't even notice it.
Loss of Watcher can vary by guild. There are arguments for all but Thorim in a guild dropping to 3 for the first time. Thorim's kill of Guardians in P3 (and Yogg, saves a few % of his health) are downright vital for guilds stepping up.
Mimiron buffs the raid with damage, runspeed, and slows Corrupter cast times. Speed of Invention
Hodir buffs the raid with damage, reduces incoming damage, and saves peoples lives. Fortitude of Frost
Freya buffs the raid with damage, bonus healing and provides sanity wells. Resilience of Nature
Even if you could do without the sanity, the extra healing from Freya is a significant help.
Even if you can survive without Hodir rescues, more damage is more DPS and less incoming damage is easier healing (potentially fewer healers/more DPS).
Even if you can easily remove Corrupter effects, run speed is significant - especially in quick illusion shatters.
Which you can drop should be a guild decision based on your own strengths and weaknesses. If you're weak in a general area, make sure you have the Watcher(s) to support that weakness.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
How long do you think Val´anyr will last? I think it will certainly last until the end of WotLK, but how far into cataclysm do you think it will be BiS?
Afterall we are only gonna go up 5 levels and the proc is quite awesome.
Depending on how they shape cata, i would still think that the first raiding tier will have something better.
I don't expect it to last in Cataclysm at all... no other legendary did.
Originally Posted by arison
Everyone should start from the same place and rise based on their abilities, desires, and schedule. No one plays MMOs to *be* powerful, they play MMOs to *become* powerful. It's the journey, stupid. The rarer loot is, the more cherished it is when you get it, but only so long as there is a reasonable expectation to get it. The rarer loot is, the better it feels when you kill a boss or when $AWESOME_TRINKET drops.
How long do you think Val´anyr will last? I think it will certainly last until the end of WotLK, but how far into cataclysm do you think it will be BiS?
Afterall we are only gonna go up 5 levels and the proc is quite awesome.
Depending on how they shape cata, i would still think that the first raiding tier will have something better.
It will probably last for a bit into Icecrown but it has allready lost it BiS status, there are allready better weapons from totc heroic.
Yea, I was gonna add, I've also been looking around for a mod to show me the current Protection of Ancient Kings shield amount on my target (specifically via Grid) and the closest thing I could find was GridStatusShields which, apparently, is bugged for PoAK and just shows a constant "0" for the current shield left. Also, it can only accurately show YOUR current shields on targets, aka if you're a disc priest it will show your Divine Aegis and PW:S shields, but it shows odd numbers for other priests' shields.
I was excited when GC posted they would FINALLY include a function to show absorbs left of a shield buff(something like "GetShieldLeft()" would be pretty awesome) but yea, definitely isn't in the API yet =/
This is me.
I've also been looking for a way to actually see what the proc does for me in a raid-setting. Inspired by this post, I went to the source of this addon to see if something was brewing amongst the comments, and behold:
Julith said
Wednesday, August 19, 2009 3:00:07 PM (last month)
I've committed a Version which supports the Hammer. It needs testing, you can get it here:
Followed by:
Boergen said
Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:47:48 AM (last month)
Tested it tonight. No errors and the shield amount seems to be calcutated correctly. Stacks with Aegis and PWS.. I would say we have a winner here.
Now I don't what happened since August 20th, but one of three:
-Patch broke the addon
-This dude was lying
-This dude was a Priest and the addon (which when you look in the .lua-code is very apparent the class it was written for) only worked properly for a priest.
I think it's number 3, but I don't know for sure.
Anyways, the initial installation of the version that should work with Val'anyr had a simple, useless behavior for me as a druid. If Val'anyr procced, it showed 0 - like the above poster, and if a priest shielded me, it said 2.2k, regardless of spec.
Now, my programming-skills are very basic, but I'm not the type to give up - so I enter the world of lua, and see if there is anything someone like me can do. It had it's own section for stuff that's defined as shields, and since I only want MY shields to appear, I removed all of those. The reason for that is
1) I really only want this to get a feel of the impact a proc has for my raid, and
2) The Val'anyr shields are consumed before SS, PWS, and DS as far as I know, so if they be gone - they be gone - if you catch my drift. If the combined absorbtioneffects on a given target takes a hit, it will be the Val'anyrs going first (at least in enough of cases that it could work as a general rule). I have done no theorycrafting on this, so if I'm wrong and you know otherwise - feel free to speak up.
Anyway, later in the lua-file it had a class-spesific section for "PRIEST", which I discreetly changed to "DRUID", not really knowing what it would do.
So, for the testing:
I did 2 runs of tests with 2 different .lua-files, which is why I'm not more .. I don't know the right word, .. bombastic(?) in my findings - because one run with a Palatank to take the hits had some weird results, but the other round - with myself as the testdummy it seemed flawless. That latter was the latest test, so I cross my fingers it was the .lua that made the difference, not the "PLAYER" vs "FRIENDLY PALADIN IN GROUP" distinction that made it - because then I will need some expert help on this.
The last test, with myself as the testdummy is the one I got screens and fraps from:
These mobs hit me for about 200, and every hit I took, I saw the shield take a hit for .2k. Seemed very accurate.
As for the shield build-up, this is a screen right after a swiftmend (to get a nice boost on the shield).
Lastly, a fraps of me hotting up, building a shield to about 6k, then running in to 2 heroic trashmobs and taking a hit which completely consumes my shield, and I just have to run out to not die. The most interesting about the video is the rate of which the shield updates itself and projects onto grid. It's worth noting that I usually don't use shading on my numbers inside grid, I did it to better enhance them for screens and vids for this.
Now, I have yet to test this in a raid-setting, but if I can get this to work for a whole raid as I do for myself, this is seriously awesome.
If there happens to be druids here with coding-skills, a Val'anyr, grid, and some time to kill - I think this could get very interesting. Too bad we're such a limited audience.
A little update, did the daily heroic to get a feel for how it plays in group-play;
It is very interesting looking at the numbers while grouping, will probably post some more after the next 25ToGC.
Thoughts:
- Gotta find a better spot for the numbers
-It's really fun seeing in a medium-low tankdamage situation;- you know the feeling when the tank is just rolling on top of your hots- imagine he's rolling in the middle of a shield for 15 seconds, never leaving max hp. Shield juggling between 2-8k, but never breaks. Awesome stuff.
This will of course not happen in a 25 man without a fully kitted healersquad, but I'm just sayin'.
Final thoughts before bed:
What would make this truly legendary (remember all the discussion about how rng is bad for healers?) would be to lower the shields to 5%, lower the cap to mayhaps 10-15k, but with a 100% uptime. It's fun trying to juggle the right amount of shields during the proc, but wiith the slow nature off hots and lack of presicion thereof, the 15 seconds are over way too fast.
I guess the balancing out of overpoweredness would be in adjusting the maxcap. Who knows, maybe even 5k would be enough.
100% / 5% would make a game within the game for healers, a game I know I would love after playing with this.
-It's really fun seeing in a medium-low tankdamage situation;- you know the feeling when the tank is just rolling on top of your hots- imagine he's rolling in the middle of a shield for 15 seconds, never leaving max hp. Shield juggling between 2-8k, but never breaks. Awesome stuff.
And now imagine this in a high tankdamage situation, 20-30k hits every ~2seconds and the tank does not take damage at all. Shield juggling between 15-40k, but never breaks.
What?
I was looking at our Anub'arak heroic kill and noticed extreme absorption values which are not in line with what i thought to know about Val'anyr.
The setting was: 2 holy paladins with Val'anyr healing the tank via Beacon of Light. There was additional healing from raidhealers and a priest on the tank but no shields or any kind of absorption besides the Protection of Ancient Kings.
Observed:
Absorption values per hit > 20k (either there is no 20k limit on the Val'anyr shield or there are really two shields with a 20k limit)
total absorption values > 15% of healing done of both paladins on the tank (each paladin is healing in his own shield and the other paladins shield simultaneaously)
total absorption values > 2x15% of healing done of both paladins on the tank (healing done on the add tanks + the same amount done by beacon of light on the tank in question + 2 shields to which both paladins contribute with their doubled healing by beacon of light)
total absorption values just a notch under 4x15% of the healing done by both paladins on the tank
Absorption values equal to the healing of 2 paladins with beacon (4x15%) even 8 seconds after one paladin has lost his Blessing of Ancient Kings buff (last possible mark where he might have still had his shield up) (-> the shield got refreshed by the paladin with Blessing of Ancient Kings still up and the healing of both paladins still counts for the shield value as long as someone refreshes the Protection of Ancient Kings)
The reasoning behind those high absorption values is of course just speculation. Maybe, and hopefully, i oversaw something obvious. That is why i came here to find a plausible solution, since this thing won't let me go...
Here are combatlog parts with added absorption values taken from the video (3:25 and 5:42).
The first line with damage taken indicates the start of a "fresh shield" since all of its absorption got depleted.
[19:38:51.496] Neore gains Blessing of Ancient Kings from Neore
[19:38:58.905] Hagula gains Blessing of Ancient Kings from Hagula
[19:39:06.466] Neore's Blessing of Ancient Kings fades
[19:39:07.158] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh 1043 (A: 14738)
[19:39:08.251] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +1043 (O: 3752)
[19:39:08.251] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 9223)
[19:39:08.925] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Miss
[19:39:09.373] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6277)
[19:39:09.779] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 20749)
[19:39:10.793] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Parry
[19:39:11.354] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4293)
[19:39:11.800] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 21335)
[19:39:12.509] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (20742)
[19:39:12.611] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4255)
[19:39:12.985] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 21332)
[19:39:13.398] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6280)
[19:39:13.790] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Gruumsh
[19:39:13.959] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Gruumsh Absorb (16381)
[19:39:13.959] Gruumsh afflicted by Freezing Slash from Anub'arak
[19:39:13.975] Hagula's Blessing of Ancient Kings fades
[19:39:14.193] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 21190)
[19:39:14.693] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6297)
[19:39:15.379] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 8612)
[19:39:15.660] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (21617)
[19:39:15.769] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6359)
[19:39:16.565] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 5748)
[19:39:16.948] Gruumsh's Freezing Slash fades
[19:39:17.083] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6279)
[19:39:17.361] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 8291)
[19:39:17.547] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Dodge
[19:39:17.770] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7092)
[19:39:19.029] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4816)
[19:39:19.205] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Parry
[19:39:19.376] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 11661)
[19:39:20.215] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7848)
[19:39:20.544] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4763)
[19:39:21.151] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (26684)
and
[19:36:37.104] Hagula gains Blessing of Ancient Kings from Hagula
[19:36:42.981] Neore gains Blessing of Ancient Kings from Neore
[19:36:50.532] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh 1314 (A: 18922)
[19:36:50.612] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 18434)
[19:36:51.078] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +1314 (O: 3269)
[19:36:51.786] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 19031)
[19:36:52.014] Hagula's Blessing of Ancient Kings fades
[19:36:52.235] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6767)
[19:36:52.546] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Parry
[19:36:53.028] Anub'arak casts Freezing Slash on Gruumsh
[19:36:53.044] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 12479)
[19:36:53.044] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6688)
[19:36:53.204] Anub'arak Freezing Slash Gruumsh Absorb (11742)
[19:36:53.204] Gruumsh afflicted by Freezing Slash from Anub'arak
[19:36:54.610] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6651)
[19:36:54.610] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 18505)
[19:36:54.885] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (20063)
[19:36:55.477] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7230)
[19:36:55.477] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6593)
[19:36:56.148] Gruumsh's Freezing Slash fades
[19:36:56.182] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 8193)
[19:36:56.600] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Dodge
[19:36:56.600] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7360)
[19:36:57.427] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7263)
[19:36:57.973] Neore's Blessing of Ancient Kings fades
[19:36:58.160] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 17306)
[19:36:58.457] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (26353)
[19:36:58.550] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7314)
[19:36:59.050] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6643)
[19:36:59.867] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 12841)
[19:37:00.127] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Dodge
[19:37:00.269] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6562)
[19:37:00.988] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 7319)
[19:37:01.000] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4488)
[19:37:02.033] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (30134)
[19:37:02.248] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6583)
[19:37:02.248] Hagula Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 4950)
[19:37:03.387] Neore Beacon of Light Gruumsh +0 (O: 6569)
[19:37:03.716] Anub'arak hits Gruumsh Absorb (24582)
Can all of this be explained with what we think to know about Val'anyr?
Last edited by Ghaash : 10/26/09 at 7:21 AM.
Reason: colors :D
Absorption values equal to the healing of 2 paladins with beacon (4x15%) even 8 seconds after one paladin has lost his Blessing of Ancient Kings buff (last possible mark where he might have still had his shield up) (-> the shield got refreshed by the paladin with Blessing of Ancient Kings still up and the healing of both paladins still counts for the shield value as long as someone refreshes the Protection of Ancient Kings)
I think this is the big point.
Looking the vid over I was surprised at the length of the shield, and the consecutive full absorbs. That was downright wild. Combined absorb of more than 110k in 10 seconds.
But what I didn't find was any possible other shields, did you have a Disc dropping shields on you too? As mentioned previously Val'anyr apparently steals the other shields. Anyway, most impressive numbers there, and good uptime too since the two procs apparently combine to one.
But what I didn't find was any possible other shields, did you have a Disc dropping shields on you too? As mentioned previously Val'anyr apparently steals the other shields. Anyway, most impressive numbers there, and good uptime too since the two procs apparently combine to one.
I did not receive a single Power Word: Shield or Sacred Shield over the entire fight.
I just added the numbers up and it seems something isn't entirely right. For the last section you posted there is a visible healing for 210k yet the shields run up for 132k. So in the period leading up to the initial absorb there would need to have been some healing of upwards of 670k. I doubt that.
I further looked at the total report and it gave the Ancient Kings absorbs of around 17% of the total Paladin healing on Gruumsh. That can't even be explained with it eating Sacred Shield.
Which is why you should lose Hodir. He may save the occasional unlucky person from tentacle rape, but most of what he does is save people who aren't paying attention - usually the meter chasers whose DPS makes you think you can cope without Mimiron. A well-coordinated raid of aware people will hardly notice a difference between +4 and +3 sans Hodir.
Not having Mimiron quadruples the amount of debuffs going out and basically removes a healer from the raid for each active corrupter tentacle, as each casts a debuff every 1.5 seconds which means for each tentacle up one of your healers is going to have to spend every GCD dispelling. Not having Mimiron is also going to cost you 10-15% of your outside DPS as Diminish Power will cast in 1.5 seconds instead of 6 seconds, drastically increasing the difficulty of keeping it removed from a crusher tentacle being DPSed. Losing the increased movement speed also makes it take longer to run up to and kill influence tentacles, run to the brain room afterwards, as well as running from spawned crusher to spawned crusher outside.
I honestly think Phase 2 with JUST Mimiron helping you is easier than Phase 2 with Hodir + Thorim + Freya helping.
08/31/09, 7:58 PM
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