aggro ceiling - fact or fiction?

Zellyn · 02/22/06, 6:03 AM

I'm about as far from an expert as you can find, but my understanding was that it's not a ceiling so much as a point at which aggro degredation supercedes the rate at which a tank can generate new hate.

Say at the beginning of a fight a tank is generating 600 hate a second, at 36000 hate generated he has gotten to the point that the monster simply cannot be made any 'hate' the tank anymore. At this point it simply becomes an uphill battle of maintaining the same level of hate.

Of course, this is all conjecture, but it fits the logic that explains why abilities like Feint, which lower hate, can't put you into a point of negative hate, since the monster won't stop 'hating' you unless you use an ability that completely removes you from combat like Feign Death and Vanish.

Elerion · 02/22/06, 7:45 AM

Because I'm lazy, I'll quote myself:

I can't find you that exact post, but I'll give you a quick summary of the concept:

(arbitrary numbers, the concept is the same)
Suppose:
Tomwarrior tanking Bobdragon gains 5000 threat per 10 seconds. Every 10 seconds, Bobthedragon uses Knock Away, which drops Tomwarrior's threat by 50%.
At the 10 second mark, Tomwarrior has gained 5000 threat and lost 2500, so he is now at 2500 threat, a total increase of 2500 during those 10 seconds.
At the 20 second mark he has gained another 5000 threat, bringing him to 7500 before the knockback. The knockback hits, and places him at 3750 threat. That's a total increase of 1250 threat over those 10 seconds.
At the 30 second mark he has gained another 5000 threat, bringing him to 8750 before the knockback. The knockback hits, and places him at 4375 threat. That's a total increase of 625 threat over those 10 seconds.
Continue this experiment long enough, and Tomwarrior's threat per 10 seconds approaches 0. That is what is commonly referred to as the threat/aggro plateau.

Practical consequence:
On mobs with percentage based de-aggro effects, you need to:
a) Increase the amount of tanks, lenghtening the time between knockbacks per tank, giving you more time before the aggro plateau is reached.
B) Kill the mob before the aggro plateau becomes an issue.

There is no aggro ceiling as in "there is no way a tank can get more aggro than this" unless the mob has a percentage based deaggro effect. In theory, if Knock Away misses, the tank will temporarily be able to get above the aggro ceiling by a tiny amount, but will drop back down to it. In reality, you will likely never see the tank be infinitely close to the aggro ceiling, since the threat gained per time unit will be so low for long before that, that dps/healers will draw aggro with their linear threat curve.

Fade does not lower permanent aggro, and does not give you lower threat generation while it's active. It simply lowers your threat by a fixed number for the duration, and gives it back when it drops.

♦ Praetorian · 02/22/06, 9:44 AM

I am fairly sure that a missed Knock Away (as with a parried or dodged one) still removes the full amount of aggro anyway.

uruloki · 02/22/06, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,February 22nd, 2006 @ 9:44AM

I am fairly sure that a missed Knock Away (as with a parried or dodged one) still removes the full amount of aggro anyway.

Now why is that? Is Blizzard simply trying to enforce the "rules of engagement" for mobs like Broodlord. What would make sense to me is that a missed Knock Away does not reduce any aggro since the attack missed. A parried or dodged one would still deaggro, but even that seems like cheating* since effects like Windfury,Poisons, etc. do not proc off of misses.

*I fully acknowledge that NPCs usually work differently than PCs. Blizzard is still cheating (like WC3 on hard mode). :P

♦ Praetorian · 02/22/06, 11:50 AM

Beats me. They just do.

Any old-school raiders remember when if you avoided a Knock Away from Onyxia or a Molten Giant (but Onyxia especially) the mob AI would respond by spamming a half dozen in a row, reducing your aggro to basically zero?

Digo · 02/22/06, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,February 22nd, 2006 @ 9:44AM

I am fairly sure that a missed Knock Away (as with a parried or dodged one) still removes the full amount of aggro anyway.

I believe this is because the de-agro component is a spell effect "cast" on the player, independent of whether or not the physical component actually hits you. But yeah, mobs cheat.

Slug · 02/23/06, 3:10 AM

If there was a hard cap hate ceiling, I'd imagine the path mobs took after initial de-agro from the tank would be highly random, since the majority of the raid would be at max-cap by the end of a long fight when a tank would typically die or lose agro on the mob. I don't know about you guys, but I usually see things eating the same people every time in mostly the same order. (Not me, though. Never me. I do not pull agro.)

dreadnor · 02/23/06, 5:25 AM

Originally Posted by Slug,February 23rd, 2006 @ 3:10AM

If there was a hard cap hate ceiling, I'd imagine the path mobs took after initial de-agro from the tank would be highly random, since the majority of the raid would be at max-cap by the end of a long fight when a tank would typically die or lose agro on the mob. I don't know about you guys, but I usually see things eating the same people every time in mostly the same order. (Not me, though. Never me. I do not pull agro.)

The aggro ceiling only exists for the person tanking the mob (taking the knockbacks).

Wubwub · 02/23/06, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by dreadnor,February 23rd, 2006 @ 4:25AM

The aggro ceiling only exists for the person tanking the mob (taking the knockbacks).

Well Slug was joking since he always blows shit up and then gets aggro.

And in a sense it exists for everyone.. As much threat as the tank can generate is as much threat as you can generate before you are destroyed in some fashion. At this point it's usually fire. The occasional mortal strike that will level a non-warrior.