Feral Druid Discussion - Page 10

subscience · 03/13/06, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion,March 13th, 2006 @ 2:23PM

http://www.sigilguild.net/hamlet/Screensho...%20Tank%202.jpg

That's an amazing screen shot. Kudos to whomever took it.

• Hamlet · 03/13/06, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by subscience,March 13th, 2006 @ 3:38PM

That's an amazing screen shot. Kudos to whomever took it.

That was me, thanks.

XI- · 03/13/06, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion,March 13th, 2006 @ 2:23PM

While yes, there's no particular reason to ever do this again, I think it should certainly help work as a proof of concept that bear tanking is to be taken seriously, and should not generally be considered a second-rate option.

And that's the point. You say yourself there's no particular reason to ever do it again. We've had rogues tank onyxia, and some of the snakes, and other junk in MC. But we don't do it every run ;)

Whillwin · 03/13/06, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Taeme,March 11th, 2006 @ 6:17AM

Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic

The difference between 14/32/5 and 0/03/21 is a minimum of 15% more feral capability, in addition to Omen of Clarity(which is a great replacement for some of the resto talents) and the LotP aura.

Here's some numbers for you(I'd rather not provide math because it's fairly obvious how I came to these conclusions):

Feral druid(14/32/5) in full tier2 resto gear is about 15% less capable healing-wise than a resto druid(x/x/31). The only other "non-stat" differences are NS and Innervate, both of which are very nice to have, and Innervate is somewhat made up for (though not nearly as much as some people suggest) with HotW.

Resto druid in feral gear is at least 25% less effective in feral forms than a feral druid. The only other non-stat differences are LotP and OoC, both of which are very nice to have.

The main reason for the differences is obviously the fact that resto does not scale with gear, while feral absolutely does.

So I don't see how you could possibly make such a statement when it's actually the resto druid who makes himself less flexible than any other build. But I'm not gonna bash any particular build, to each his own.

Chupa · 03/13/06, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Whillwin,March 13th, 2006 @ 7:31PM

The main reason for the differences is obviously the fact that resto does not scale with gear, while feral absolutely does.

I agree with your thesis but this statement really confuses me.

Elerion · 03/14/06, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Whillwin,March 13th, 2006 @ 8:31PM

Originally Posted by Taeme,March 11th, 2006 @ 6:17AM

Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic

The difference between 14/32/5 and 0/03/21 is a minimum of 15% more feral capability, in addition to Omen of Clarity(which is a great replacement for some of the resto talents) and the LotP aura.

Here's some numbers for you(I'd rather not provide math because it's fairly obvious how I came to these conclusions):

Feral druid(14/32/5) in full tier2 resto gear is about 15% less capable healing-wise than a resto druid(x/x/31). The only other "non-stat" differences are NS and Innervate, both of which are very nice to have, and Innervate is somewhat made up for (though not nearly as much as some people suggest) with HotW.

Resto druid in feral gear is at least 25% less effective in feral forms than a feral druid. The only other non-stat differences are LotP and OoC, both of which are very nice to have.

The main reason for the differences is obviously the fact that resto does not scale with gear, while feral absolutely does.

So I don't see how you could possibly make such a statement when it's actually the resto druid who makes himself less flexible than any other build. But I'm not gonna bash any particular build, to each his own.

The 31 point feral talent could make you 500% better at making coffee, it still wouldn't increase your raid flexibility.

Your numbers are completely irrelevant to the raid. 15% better healing is more important than 25% more feral damage. And no, HotW is in no way a replacement for Innervate.

Taeme · 03/14/06, 7:08 AM

If we came hotw with innervate on the pure basis of it's ability to provide endurance in long fights then hotw is a giant pile of crap.

Also you may want to look up flexibility but w/e.

Graham · 03/14/06, 7:53 AM

HotW, obviously, doesn't make up for innervate. That said, the number of times I've been asked for innervate by someone with thier potion and NDB timers down since we first beat baron geddon can probably be counted on two hands.

HotW does massivly increase your flexibility. Consider:

0/12/39 	AP(cat) AC(bear)	HP(bear)	MP(caster)
Healin gear 	600 6800 6600 6500
Feral gear 	1100 14750 6400 3000

vs
0/30/21  AP(cat) AC(bear)	HP(bear)	MP(caster)
Healin gear 	740 6800 7200 7900
Feral gear 	1300 14750 8200 4500
Mixed needs 	1200 12000 7900 5800

Yes, I can feral charge in any set of gear, but obviously, if we're talking about bringing options to the raid, I bring a lot more of them when I've got HotW. Ever since we got to Nef, there have been more and more times when I wished I had those options instead of wishing I had innervate.

Chupa · 03/14/06, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by Elerion,March 14th, 2006 @ 5:57AM

The 31 point feral talent could make you 500% better at making coffee, it still wouldn't increase your raid flexibility.

Your numbers are completely irrelevant to the raid. 15% better healing is more important than 25% more feral damage. And no, HotW is in no way a replacement for Innervate.

Ah, but the 31-point talent DOES increase your Raid flexibility. HotW is the 30-point talent. :)

I'll forward you to Gonktarget if you wish to debate the merits of Leader of the Pack :P

Elerion · 03/14/06, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Chupa,March 14th, 2006 @ 8:00AM

Ah, but the 31-point talent DOES increase your Raid flexibility. HotW is the 30-point talent. :)

I'll forward you to Gonktarget if you wish to debate the merits of Leader of the Pack :P

Yeah Chupa, I know, I was just trying to show how irrelevant it is that aspect A gets a x% increase while aspect B gets a y% increase. As long as aspect A isn't utilized by the raid, it doesn't matter if it gets a million times better. The main increase from the later half of the feral tree is damage increase, which isn't particularly useful to the raid.

The mana/hp increase from HOTW is obviously handy, but it's up against the raw power of Innervate, and it loses every time (from the raid's point of view). You might say that innervate is only absolutely needed in very few situations, but I can honestly say that I've never sat down after a whipe and thought "man, I wish our bears had more hp".

Krag · 03/14/06, 9:23 AM

I have a quick question for those who've tried a few different specs: Is the loss of Sublety noticable at all? I've only respecced once ever (back at the free respec that came with new talents) so I haven't really got anything to compare to.

Brilliance · 03/14/06, 9:30 AM

Only thing I will say is that horde side allows for druids to go into LoTP. Alliance cant have any one x/31/x because your lose your only nature swiftness. Horde side 90% of the shaman have NS, so you can give up a few for your druids to be more "flexible" as you say.

I need to find my screenshot of the feral druids on Shattered Hand. Saw him while doing a corpse run after some wipe in AQ, probably to Cthun. Good old 3k mana pool.

Graham · 03/14/06, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Krag,March 14th, 2006 @ 9:23AM

I have a quick question for those who've tried a few different specs: Is the loss of Sublety noticable at all? I've only respecced once ever (back at the free respec that came with new talents) so I haven't really got anything to compare to.

I don't think there's a single druid in EJ with subtelty.

Kaubel · 03/14/06, 9:52 AM

Correct. If a druid is getting heal aggro, either his timing is bad or his warriors suck.

Krag · 03/14/06, 8:28 PM

Thanks, that's very good to know since those 5 talent points could be put to better use once I get around to actually respeccing, though when that will be no one knows B)