Feral Druid Discussion - Page 12

Elerion · 03/15/06, 1:38 AM

You're exactly the kind of person that causes threads like this to even exist. How exactly is 25% more damage < 15% more healing? Last I checked it IS POSSIBLE to have too much healing, ever checked the Recap meters? But there's many situations when more DPS is exactly what the raid needs.

If you needed more DPS, why did you bring a druid in the first place? Druids are healers with alternate roles as tanks. Deal with it.

Oh, and if you're gonna argue that with healing rotations, you always need healing? Well in those situations it's EVEN BETTER to have a feral druid because they can do very good damage when it's not their turn to heal, as opposed to a resto who just sits there, or does 25% less damage than a feral.

I hope you're joking here. You would rather have a feral druid in feral gear than a true healer in your healer rotations? Or would you rather have a feral druid in resto gear doing damage? Name one encounter where you would rather have your druids in the healing rotations be feral rather than resto. Just one.

Oh, and I CLEARLY stated that HotW doesn't even come close to Innervate, but it does make up for it somewhat.

No. Just no. Do the math sometime of how much 20% extra intellect matters compared to innervate. Your "somewhat" in this case is so minimal that it doesn't even count.

Flexibility to contribute in areas that no one needs your character to contribute in doesn't count. Feral "damage" flexibility is pretty close to useless.

Zantetsuken-EU · 03/15/06, 3:03 AM

the sole advantage of innervate over HotW is that you can cast it on other people. To be honest 30/21 and 20/31 both have their uses, but priests generally appreciate innervate more as it means they don't need to spam consumables as much.

20% more intelect is also not a direct mana correlation, although it probably works out at about 15% more mana although i think it might be less. But the fact remains that the feral spec grants a raid team choices in a situation they might need them: pure restoration doesn't.

Yes, innervate is useful and can grant a huge amount of mana back, but it is not the be all and end all of how far a guild can progress in an instance or how quickly they can learn to compensate. Taking Ascent as an exmaple, Jaeger has always said how they take shed loads of healers on their raids. Now, if around 20 memebrs of a 40 man raid are capable of healing with ~ 6k+ mana (unbuffed), more so in some cases, knowing your raid has the flexibility in having druids which can switch to feral dps if you need that slight extra boost to down Sartura before 10 minutes is up can be a real help, whilst ensuring that if a fight goes tits up you have 20 players capable of keeping mts and others up. because lets face it Elerion yes druids can't dps as effectively as a hunter or rogue but they sure as hell can heal betetr whilst not losing a hell of alot of dps to the raid, therefore the raid lasts longer.

♦ Praetorian · 03/15/06, 3:10 AM

+int and +mana talents and bonuses are increasingly useless. Things that reduce the casting cost of spells, improve their effectiveness, or generate additional mana (regen), are increasingly useful.

On our last Twin Emperors kill, I used somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k-40k mana. Extreme example, granted, but on most fights that matter, those fights last a while, and a healer is burning through 2x-3x their mana pool over the course of the encounter. Sure, that extra 2k mana might seem amazing when you look at your character screen, and it's useful in PvP or short PvE engagements, but the really hard fights also tend to last a while. Going from 6k to 8k mana is huge. Going from 26k to 28k less so.

the sole advantage of innervate over HotW is that you can cast it on other people.

Also, no offense, but this is pretty dense. Innervate can return 6k+ mana and can be used twice in some lengthy fights. HotW is basically a one-time infusion of mana that may as well have never existed as soon as you get your first few heals off.

Chupa · 03/15/06, 8:26 AM

However, on a practical level, I don't think we've had a mana-induced wipe on anything but bleeding-edge content in forever (sup Huhuran). For farming conent, innervate is nice, but nonessential. For learning, though, it is quite important for the extra padding it creates.

Also there are a lot of people getting overly-agitated in this thread. :(

Whillwin · 03/15/06, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Chupa,March 15th, 2006 @ 8:26AM

However, on a practical level, I don't think we've had a mana-induced wipe on anything but bleeding-edge content in forever (sup Huhuran). For farming conent, innervate is nice, but nonessential. For learning, though, it is quite important for the extra padding it creates.

Also there are a lot of people getting overly-agitated in this thread. :(

Ya, Huhuran is one of the few fights that innervate can actually save a raid. Otherwise I've had the same experience, back when we were learning MC and BWL I never recall a raid wiping because the healers were OOM. It's almost always because of positioning or strategy in general, and never about pure stats.

And the reason people are getting agitated is because they can't handle the truth, especially when it differs greatly from their preconceived notions...

Taeme · 03/15/06, 11:23 AM

I'm just laughing.

btw Bad is my favourite feral druid because she doesn't try to justify to me.

Elerion · 03/15/06, 11:25 AM

Obviously I can't handle the truth :(

norg · 03/15/06, 11:48 AM

Tom Cruise hates feral druids. :(

Graham · 03/15/06, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 15th, 2006 @ 3:10AM

HotW is basically a one-time infusion of mana that may as well have never existed as soon as you get your first few heals off.

Again, no one would (I hope) seriously argue that the +15% mana from gear you get from HotW is equal to the mana capacity from Innervate. What it does give you is (1) the ability to wear balanced tanking and healing gear without strangling your mana pool and (2) a shit-ton more HP when you do need to offtank something.

Last night on Sartura (wearing a mix of bear gear for the adds and healing gear for Sartura) I went in with 13K AC, 800AP, 6.6K HP, 80 mp5, and 5400 mana (at 0/12/39). Two weeks ago (at 0/30/21) on the same pull I went in with 13K AC, 1000AP, 8K HP, 85 mp5, and 5900 mana.

Obviously, I was a slightly (and I mean slightly) better healer after the adds were down last night, but I had a much better chance of surviving the adds last week, and if I die to the adds then my late-fight healing capabilities are pointless.

Then let's compare Nef. EJ single-target DPS's Stage1 (I don't think that's a big secret).
At 0/30/21 I go into the fight to catform Stage1 with 1200AP, 6K HP, 80 mp5 and 5800 mana. That's a reliable 250ish DPS from a healer without using any mana before stage 2 starts. That's good.

At 0/12/39 I'd be more like 850AP, 6K HP, 80 mp5 and 5000 mana, to get to about 185 DPS. If I (and I probably would) didn't try to cat form at all and just wrath spam I'd be running at a good 6K HP, 105 mp5, and 6600 mana, but then I'm burning mana (like mad) in Stage1 for 150ish DPS.

It IS a trade off. If I had to say "there are two allowed EJ druid builds" I probably would say 11/0/40 and 0/12/39 are the two, but having two 0/30/21 druids in any 40-man, I still think, gives you more flexibility, not less. Having three 0/30/21 druids, one 15/31/5, and one 0/12/39 though? Meh.

Whillwin · 03/15/06, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Elerion,March 15th, 2006 @ 1:38AM

You're exactly the kind of person that causes threads like this to even exist.�* How exactly is 25% more damage < 15% more healing?�* Last I checked it IS POSSIBLE to have too much healing, ever checked the Recap meters?�* But there's many situations when more DPS is exactly what the raid needs.

If you needed more DPS, why did you bring a druid in the first place? Druids are healers with alternate roles as tanks. Deal with it.

Oh, and if you're gonna argue that with healing rotations, you always need healing?�* Well in those situations it's EVEN BETTER to have a feral druid because they can do very good damage when it's not their turn to heal, as opposed to a resto who just sits there, or does 25% less damage than a feral.

I hope you're joking here. You would rather have a feral druid in feral gear than a true healer in your healer rotations? Or would you rather have a feral druid in resto gear doing damage? Name one encounter where you would rather have your druids in the healing rotations be feral rather than resto. Just one.

Oh, and I CLEARLY stated that HotW doesn't even come close to Innervate, but it does make up for it somewhat.

No. Just no. Do the math sometime of how much 20% extra intellect matters compared to innervate. Your "somewhat" in this case is so minimal that it doesn't even count.

Flexibility to contribute in areas that no one needs your character to contribute in doesn't count. Feral "damage" flexibility is pretty close to useless.

lol, you're a perfect case in point of a person who can't handle the truth. Have you ever seen a mod that calculated overDPSing? Me neither. Here's a nice arguement I always like to bring up: I can do 120% of the neccessary healing with feral spec, when you factor in overhealing. With resto spec it would be about 140% of the neccessary healing. Just check Recap + Healing meters. The druids will ALWAYS be dead last unless your priests are slacking.

Why don't you just ask your druids what they do half the time when they're supposedly healing? I'll tell you. They're sitting there most of the time doing nothing and tossing the occasional rejuv and they're casting a 3s Rank 5 GHeal that heals for as much as a priest's flash heal. Both are waste of time that could be spent doing other things.

And I'm not talking about a druid who does nothing but sit in cat form and spam Shred, you can debate about that elsewhere. I'm talking about situations (especially with healing rotations) when you have enough healing and you could use a little DPS boost as opposed to a druid who just spams rank 5 HT.

Oh, and name encounters where ferals could be better than restos? Let's see: Kazzak, Hakkar, Broodlord, Ebonroc, Nefarian, just to name a few.

The gates only opened about 2 weeks ago, so we're only on Huhuran(woulda downed him if the damn server wasn't lagging). And I can already tell that some of the fights leading up to Huhuran are just as good for ferals as for restos, Huhuran being the one exception where restos are clearly better.

And as for HotW vs Innervate? Let's say you get 2 innervates per fight at 6000 mana per. HotW gives me 1300 mana. So it's 12000 - 1300, so as you can see it DOES make up for it somewhat, over 10%. And Like I said, OOC is actually the big mana boost talent, not HotW. And innervate isn't flexability, like one of your priests said, it saves the use of consumables.

"Deal with it." Don't talk to me telling me what my role is, lol. I'm a feral druid in a high-end guild so I'm PRETTY SURE I know what a feral druid is capable of more than you do. I don't have to "deal" with anything, I'm feral. I'm only posting here to present YOUR guild (and others) with arguements as to what a feral druid can do.

♦ Praetorian · 03/15/06, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Whillwin,March 15th, 2006 @ 11:50AM

lol, you're a perfect case in point of a person who can't handle the truth. Have you ever seen a mod that calculated overDPSing? Me neither. Here's a nice arguement I always like to bring up: I can do 120% of the neccessary healing with feral spec, when you factor in overhealing. With resto spec it would be about 140% of the neccessary healing. Just check Recap + Healing meters. The druids will ALWAYS be dead last unless your priests are slacking.

Grats on being a shitty healer in a guild full of shitty healers.

Let's say you get 2 innervates per fight at 6000 mana per. HotW gives me 1300 mana. So it's 12000 - 1300, so as you can see it DOES make up for it somewhat, over 10%.

:lol:

And innervate isn't flexability, like one of your priests said, it saves the use of consumables.

The fights where I appreciate innervate the most are the fights where I'm having mana issues even with heavy consumables use. And in casual use, yes, having an extra 6000 mana every 6 minutes without having to chug potions is a significant advantage.

"Deal with it." Don't talk to me telling me what my role is, lol. I'm a feral druid in a high-end guild so I'm PRETTY SURE I know what a feral druid is capable of more than you do. I don't have to "deal" with anything, I'm feral. I'm only posting here to present YOUR guild (and others) with arguements as to what a feral druid can do.

You're an idiot. Stop posting.

subscience · 03/15/06, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 15th, 2006 @ 12:04PM

You're an idiot. Stop posting.

I'm pretty sure you have the power to make this happen. :P

Brilliance · 03/15/06, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Whillwin,March 15th, 2006 @ 11:50AM

"Deal with it."�* Don't talk to me telling me what my role is, lol.�* I'm a feral druid in a high-end guild so I'm PRETTY SURE I know what a feral druid is capable of more than you do.�* I don't have to "deal" with anything, I'm feral.�* I'm only posting here to present YOUR guild (and others) with arguements as to what a feral druid can do.

Well, your gonna learn that once the encounters get harder then w/e encounter you call hard in BWL (its all a fucking joke now) and get to the REAL bosses of AQ40 (Notice on how you mentioned Huhuran, meet your gateway mob) Your gonna realize w/e dps you can bring wont help anything when the tank takes a 7k hit, and instead of healing you stay in cat form. Or even better to switch to bear to take over tanking.

"Why didnt you heal him lol feral druid?"
"I have 300 dps"

Not ragging on feral druids who have a clue (the ones in EJ to what all these posts show me, who know when to heal and when not to) But you honestly come off like one of those LOL FERAL DRUID 3000 MANA NEVER LEAVE CAT idiots.

Like Gurg said, You're an idiot. Stop posting.

thevidon · 03/15/06, 1:29 PM

Does anyone have healpoints numbers for a resto druid in full healing gear vs. a feral druid in mixed heal/feral gear (which is what you guys are saying you would wear in raids)?

Anybody wanna respec and then back again to get us some hard numbers?

• Hamlet · 03/15/06, 1:33 PM

The fact that I (and others) said we want Innervate/Resto builds for Huhuran has nothing to do with the fact that it's the gateway boss. It's just that the particulars of that fight make it very useful.