Feral Druid Discussion - Page 9

Augustus · 03/10/06, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 10th, 2006 @ 11:54AM

I'm still perplexed by the Skeram stuff -- sounds like we have very different approaches to the fight. My understanding of the fight makes what you're proposing be an exceptionally bad idea (have you ever actually tried having someone pull Skeram from range, or try to move him around a lot?).

I guess I wasn't really thinking that through, eh? Sorry, only fought him twice, and the second time I was deifnately feral charging and repulling to the init location...

I guess a ranged pull wouldn't make sense *SHOCK* (pun.) and I can only assume in the madness on our first kill that a separate warrior was pulling back down.

But ya, if Druid was the MT, it eliminates the need for Warrior 2.

Kaubel · 03/10/06, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Augustus,March 10th, 2006 @ 10:06AM

Those people apparently consider you their better, not their equal.

No, they expect posts that aren't glaringly open for misinterpretation. There's a difference. You saying that druids can get aggro while not getting hit, and by omission saying warriors cannot, doesn't exactly help you on your quest to sound as if you're an expert on the mechanisms of tanking.

You're welcome to brainstorm and suggest that druids can do this, that, and the other. Just watch the biased, unproven gossip and you won't get hassled. That and stop insulting the others who frequently visit here. If anything, they've earned the right to be heard. You haven't yet.

Lord BEEF · 03/10/06, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 10th, 2006 @ 10:58AM

Most aggro-sensitive fights also tend to yield a whole lot of rage for the tanks, to the point where many weapon speed for more HS spam becomes a factor for warriors. So taking rage out of the equation entirely isn't unreasonable.

On the other hand, there are quite a few "ok fight for aggro" fights where all the tanks fight for aggro and are only getting rage for their attacks, making rage efficiency a major issue.

Chupa · 03/11/06, 1:40 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 10th, 2006 @ 10:58AM

A simple and practical test would be to have a warrior and a bear fight for aggro on Vael, pre-execute range, both vying to be the #2 tank. When the #1 tank blows up, to whom will Vael turn?

Signing up for this! :D

Graham · 03/11/06, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,March 10th, 2006 @ 11:58AM

A simple and practical test would be to have a warrior and a bear fight for aggro on Vael, pre-execute range, both vying to be the #2 tank. When the #1 tank blows up, to whom will Vael turn?

Vael is one of the few fights where I think even we could make good use of bears. Bears with good crit rates could give you a noticably wider aggro lead for #1 and #2 above 3, which would make the fight safer.

Taeme · 03/11/06, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Graham,March 11th, 2006 @ 12:49AM

Vael is one of the few fights where I think even we could make good use of bears. Bears with good crit rates could give you a noticably wider aggro lead for #1 and #2 above 3, which would make the fight safer.

I don't know why people even bring up Vael as though it's aggro-sensitive in a meaningful way. Maybe it was last summer, but it's not now. Aggro-sensitivity in the manner, say, Broodlord effects a raid, is not what wipes us on Vael under those rare occassions where we do.

Aggro in time-attack type fights is generally a matter of load balancing. That a bear might allow 14% more damage out of the number one damage dealer in the fight is meaningless, since that damage dealer need only do so much if members of his/her class is slacking. In other words, if a raid is doing it's job properly, it's a non-issue.

Also, Vael is all about transitions. If the bears at #1 and #2 do great, that's only useful if the warrior in #3 can push out enough threat that you don't catch on the transitions and wipe to a sloppy spin to burn.

On the other hand, bear capable druids are simply stellar in AQ40 - Druids in general have many impressive options. While I disagree with pointless pure feral builds - Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic - the things a druid can do in AQ40 are very impressive, and add a lot to a raid. Innervate is amazing in long fights, but all the bear abilities makes Skeram, the triplets and Sartura especially better. A good bear form druid is priceless. Hell, they're good on the trash.

AQ40 is a very well designed instance when it comes to pressing raid groups hard on numbers and spreading things thin. And druids react to that exceedingly well.

I don't get the argument when you can look at a situation where a druid tank is less a luxury and more a key to success.

Shik · 03/11/06, 8:06 AM

What would a bear tank wear for Vael? There seems to be a significant amount of plate FR floating about, and while I aggro the mechanics of the test make sense, what would the druid be wearing to avoid becoming a steak?

I'm usually second on the tank transition, pickup Vael around 21-22% using by sundering every global cooldown and queuing HS for every attack.

What would a feral druid be doing in that situation? My losing 300-400 AP in full FR gear has a neglible effect of my threat generation, is that the same for a druid?

Chupa · 03/11/06, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Taeme,March 11th, 2006 @ 5:17AM

Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic

I'd argue that being feral gives more flexibility. It really cannot be overemphasized how awesome a talent Heart of the Wild is.

Lord BEEF · 03/11/06, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chupa,March 11th, 2006 @ 4:53PM

Originally Posted by Taeme,March 11th, 2006 @ 5:17AM

Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic

I'd argue that being feral gives more flexibility. It really cannot be overemphasized how awesome a talent Heart of the Wild is.

I think he was referring to pure feral builds, i.e. no talents in restoration that actually improve healing

Chupa · 03/11/06, 6:32 PM

Still that makes you more flexible, just not as good a healer. But it's just semantics :P

• Bad Luck · 03/11/06, 7:48 PM

Taeme messages me regularly telling me to respec.

Taeme · 03/11/06, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Chupa,March 11th, 2006 @ 4:53PM

Originally Posted by Taeme,March 11th, 2006 @ 5:17AM

Sorry, giving up flexibility for a little more dps umph is moronic

I'd argue that being feral gives more flexibility. It really cannot be overemphasized how awesome a talent Heart of the Wild is.

I mean what Beef said totally.

Heart of the Wild is good. It doesn't wow me, but it's definitely a good talent in the same appeal as flurry is for warriors (helpful all the time but never amazing).

• moz · 03/12/06, 12:26 AM

I wish we had more bear tanks in BWL, maybe then we wouldn't go through so many warriors on Broodlord

diospadre · 03/12/06, 3:08 AM

Originally Posted by moz,March 11th, 2006 @ 11:26PM

I wish we had more bear tanks in BWL, maybe then we wouldn't go through so many warriors on Broodlord

Give me your sword :rolleyes:

• Hamlet · 03/13/06, 2:23 PM

Augustus was probably too frightened away to post here, but we let him have some fun yesterday:

http://www.sigilguild.net/hamlet/Screensho...%20Tank%201.jpg
http://www.sigilguild.net/hamlet/Screensho...%20Tank%202.jpg

Worked perfectly for literally 97% of the fight, and then some unrelated sloppiness in the raid led to a 1% wipe.

While yes, there's no particular reason to ever do this again, I think it should certainly help work as a proof of concept that bear tanking is to be taken seriously, and should not generally be considered a second-rate option.