Heartwarden

1. Introduction
There is no way to properly evaluate each of the stats available to priests in their gear without assuming a certain scenario.

Int is a fixed contribution.
Mana regen depends on the duration of the combat.
Spirit depends on the duration and how often you are on the 5s rule.
Healing power depends on how much you cast what you cast.

So in order to have a decent comparison between these stats you need to come up with a scenario that most likely fills what could be the hardest bosses to heal thru.


2. Math (my lame attempt at)
I did some mathwork some months ago assuming:

Spell cast: flash heal
Duration of the combat: 10 minutes
Time on 5s rule: 50%

[Intelect]
10 int = 165 mana

[Spirit]
Spirit regen formula = 13 + (spi/4)
Variations on Spirit formula = spi/4

100 Spirit = 100 mana per tick/4
25 mana per tick

300 ticks x 25 mana per tick = 7500 mana

100 Spirit = 7500 mana (if out of 5sec rule = 100%)
Standard regen is 50%
Meditation 15% (in 5sec rule)
Transcendence set bonus 15% (in 5sec rule)

0.5(1) [out 5sec rule] + 0,5(0,3) [out 5sec rule] = 0,65 [standard regen]

0,65 x 7500 mana = 4875 mana

100 Spirit = 4875 mana (normal combat scenario)
1 Spirit = 48,75 mana

[Mana Regen]
1 mana regen per 5s tick x 120 ticks = 120 mana

1 mana regen = 120 mana

[Healing Power]
500 Healing Power -> Flash Heal rank 5 -> Healing Efficiency = 3,22 HP/mana (heal i would possibly use on most scenarios)
minus
0 Healing Power -> Flash Heal rank 7 -> Healing Efficiency = 2,6 HP/mana (stardand heal for priests with no healing power)
equals
(Variation in) Healing Power = Y = 0,62 HP/mana

Mana Pool available in standard combat scenario
Int = (372+31)1,1(kings) = 443
Spi = (313+35)1,1(kings) = 382
Mana regen = 63 + 30(wisdom) = 93

Mana(int) = 7310
Mana(spi) = 18593
Mana(MR) = 11760
Mana(total) = 37663

Mana(total) x Y (see above) = 37663 mana x 0,62 HP/mana
37663 mana x 0,62 HP/mana = 23351 HP

23351 HP / 0 Healing Power Mana Efficiency = 23351 HP / 2,6 HP/mana
23351 HP / 2,6 HP/mana =~ 9000 mana

500 Healing Power = 9000 mana
1 Healing Power = 18 mana

[Comparison]
1 int = 16,5 mana
1 spi = 48,75 mana
1 mana regen = 120 mana
1 healing power = 18 mana

1 spi = 2,95 int
1 mana regen = 7,2 int
1 healing power =~ 1 int (due to overhealing)

I assumed Spiritual Healing
I assumed Mental Strenght.

3. Notes

Healing Power: The better your gear (ammount of mana available), the most effective it is. My calculation pushes it to its max efficiency, so it can perform worse in most cases.

4. Priests in 1.10

[Spiritual Guidance]

Yelds a 9.2% increase in spirit mana output following the math given above.

Spiritual Guidance: 25% spirit = +healing
+100 Spirit = +25 healing spells

With talents:
100 Spirit = 4875 mana
25 Healing Spells = 450 mana

100 Spirit = 5325 mana
1 Spirit = 53,25 mana

[Mental Strenght]
Most builds will lack this talent on 1.10 (i think). This should overall reduce the mana contribution given by int by an even larger margin.

5. Desired Feedback

A - I'm closing in on my 8 Trans set bonus. I would like some input on how useful it is on a real raid scenario. It seems godlike on paper. But with a full raid casting GHs, it could be overwritten so often that it never manages to tick. How important do you guys think it is going to be? If it is not overwritten, it could perform better. +healing would work wonders with it, and that should be accounted for.

B - Is this math blatantly wrong on any aspect? Do you disagree on something regarding the math, scenario used, overall thinking? Post your reasons.

C - What are the ratios used by you when choosing gear? How did you come up with that math? What scenario you used?

6. Apologies

I am not an american, as you can probably notice by my poor english. I also didn't check spelling, so some words with double letters could be wrong. My apologies for any hard time reading thru this.

 

GIJebus

Any spirit/mp5 whatever determination always depends on how much time spent in and out of casting. I personaly value mp5. It takes 5 mp5 to cover for 8 spirit when not casting (2 mana per tick). But while casting it takes a little over 24 spirit to match 5 mp5. Although I think the bonus to mp5 is that it stacks with spirit regen out of casting but now of course spirit has the benefit of +dmg/heal, but I don't think it's so much that it will effect what I loot because mana is so much sweeter than spell power for healers. Massive renew ticks are nice but being able to renew a half dozen more times is sweeter. The Gheal changes will make a difference now that Fheal spam is out so my current strateigery may be out in 1.10.

edit: numbers all fuzzy or something something headache

 

Elerion

10 mp5 = 4 mana per tick (not 2) = 16 spirit while not casting (=53.33 spirit while casting, assuming 3trans and meditation)

Just to nitpick, Mhedic :)

 

Incoherence

This mod answers all of your questions about spirit vs. mana/5: http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=2337

Personally depending on where I am and how lazy I'm feeling 1 mana/5 = somewhere between 2 and 3 spirit. Feel free to judge your items accordingly. For example, this means that from a pure regen standpoint Gloves of Prophecy are STILL the best gloves in the game.

Mana regen vs. +healing is a bit more difficult to quantify... the original post gives exactly one situation, and I'm not sure whether his methods are necessarily the way you want to compare them.

 

• Arawethion

I'm not sure the theorycraft can get you very far in terms of comparing mana/mana regen to +healing. You can compute your expected total healing per manabar (extended for fight duration), but would it be very informative?

The comparison between Spi/Int/MP5 is easily worked out, on the other hand, with help of of some emprical data on how much time you spend casting. I have a post on this buried somewhere in our guild forums, but for Priest with Mediation and 5pc Trans, you need about 50% time out of casting to make Spi better than MP5 (throw Kings into the mix, and that number goes down a good bit).

As a Mage, I have a slightly different view on this. I have two gear sets, one is non-set gear with maximum +damage (+631 damage and about 5600 mana unbuffed); the other focuses on MP5 and other stats (about +490 damage and 6500 mana unbuffed). There are two kinds of fights--those where I run out of mana, and those where I don't, and that determines what I wear.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

• Arawethion

This was done with a slightly outdated set of item stat values, but it pretty accurate. The "Pst" line is done with either Meditation, or 5pc Trans, but not both (both would make them just like Mages).
---------
Let's run the exact numbers analytically, with no rounding:

Spi (out of casting): 1/8 mana/sec
Spi (in casting, Mage): 3/80 mana/sec
Spi (in casting, Pst): 3/160 mana/sec
MP5 : 1/5 mana/sec

Checking the relative stat values however, MP5 "costs" 550 to an ordinary stat's 230. So, you can expect, on average, to find 23/55 as much MP5 on items as you can Spi. We will normalize to that for an accurate comparison.

MP5 (effectively): (1/5)*(23/55) = 23/275 mana/sec

Let's call the x the fraction of the time you must be out of casting for Spi to exactly equal MP5.

Mages:
x/8 + 3/80*(1-x) = 23/275 => x=29/55 = 52.7 %

Priests:
x/8 + 3/160*(1-x) = 23/275 => x=571/935 = 61.1%

An Alliance Pst who always has Kings (e.g. not guilded with Jacovin):
(x/8 + 3/160*(1-x))*1.1 = 23/275 => x = 53.9%

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Heartwarden

I didn't provide some info that was on my notepad file.

Scenario: 10 min (600 seconds) boss fight
Spirit regen ticks: 300
Mana regen ticks: 120

The mana regen "ticks" are actually 5 second ones. Not the regular 2s ones. The name is not proper, but the math is.

Concerning time expent on 5s rule
I had a mod for some months that displayed how much mana i expent during the fight, how much i regenerated, int/spi ratio, time in 5s rule and ammount healed.

I collected the data for some time and came up with the 50% on most boss normal boss fights. The ratios varied according to the combat, but made sure that spirit is way superior to int in almost all regards, except in extremely quick fights, but those can be ignored in raid scenarios.

 

Elerion

I think everyone here knew int stinks in raids already ;)

 

GIJebus

Oh, whoops, I was thinking about this earlier and mixed up my thoughts while typing this out

edit: I just grab healpoints and assume it knows better than I do when selecting loot... time to get a 2nd mind tap, bye bye seal. your FR won't help in AQ

 

Damien

Muse will track your value of Spirit, Mp5, and time within the 5 second rule over the course of a boss fight.

+Healing is harder to gauge. Blizz values it at 5.5 healing = 2.3 spirit = 1 mp5.

You could probably calculate how much +healing you need to drop down a rank of spell, how much that mana saves you per cast, and how many casts you use in a typical encounter.

 

Jo_

that sums up my thoughts aswell. get some of each but since the trans set is pretty loaded with +healing my idea is to go mostly for mp5/spirit on the other slots.

 

Zantetsuken-EU

well my gear is a complete mish mash at the moment. We finally opened Ahn'Qiraj on Ragnaros-EU yesterday, and i had to wear a flarecore robe because its the only thing i've got :) Granted, the 35 stamina affords is nice, and my overal gear gives me 7.8k mana buffed and 4.5k health. But then the rest of my gear is a mix of Zandalar and Prophecy, with a Blue Dragon and Hero Charm thrown in and some Gloves of Spell Mastery (they were a novelty at the time). I'm currently trying to get a mix of int and mana regen gear, but i always try and extremify my gear (eg Shimmering Geta/Shard of the Scale to cover a lot of mana regen gear in a few slots, once i can get those).

In terms of +healing and mana regen gear, there are some obscenely nice pieces in AQ 40. I doubt i need to mention the Blessed Quiraji Acolyte's Staff as an upgrade to Benediction, because not only does it give a huge + healing boost before the 55 enchant, but it also hase 15 m5. granted, Arlokk's Judgement is still the best spirit and therefore mana regen staff in the game, and i guess is still the weapon combination of choice for mana regen in a fight.

Of course in an ideal world we'd all have Fang of Korialstrasz with a high + healing off hand :)

 

nefas

I prefer a very heavy mp5 build. My reasons are fairly basic. It simplifies the healing process. I dont have to keep track of as many spell ranks. I have the lowest viable rank that my +heal makes useful and then the top ranks. Second, its flexible. If I need to do something other than heal its not going to be a cloudy day for me and I dont need a 2nd set of gear. Lastly, spirit builds depend on Trans 3-Piece too much. I already have gear that is an upgrade and I dont want to be tied to 3 pieces of gear forever with no forseeable upgrade.

1.10 I believe will work well with a regen build as well. With the 2.5 second casting time lower ranks of Heal seem very viable. When combining 130+ mp5, 500 +heal, and sub 250 mana 800-1100 hp Heal R3 & 2; the priest can maintain a very high rate of longevity and a competitive hp/sec. That is not to say I do not think there will be correspondingly good +heal builds, I just have my way. I favor simplicity and versatility.

The hidden benefit I find with mp5 gear is that it also tends to have a significant amount of stamina, and honestly, more hp is never bad.

 

Zantetsuken-EU

you only have to look at flarecore bracers to that :) In fact the fire res on them is neglible, most players want them for the mana regen followed by 4m5 enchant or 9 stam

 

Taeme

I value (I have a 60 priest) spirit / concentration very highly, but I will tell you this : 8/8 trans is GOD.

God I tell you.

you're the one that decided to trust me

 

Brilliance

Having no real knowledge of the priest class or healing, all I will say is I agree with the above.

Rank 1 Gheal someone + Renew = Double Dot Hotness.

Edit- Fixing grammar // spelling -.-

 

◊ Praetorian

Indeed. One of the people below was wearing 8/8 Trans for the Twin Emps. Can you guess who? :huh:

 

GIJebus

It's still all about the dynamics of the fight. Twin emps allows raylen to spirit up for a whole 30 seconds, add that to the spirit that trans has and you're golden. If we had healer rotations for every boss then spirit would always, always win. In fact, since priest can gheal their happy asses off now, rotations might be the way to go. A perfect system would have one healer keeping the tank from going less than 40% while the other healer gheals him to full so no mana is wasted (assuming there's no massive burst damage). Cycle 2 groups of that and healing would be pretty easy with little concern for mana.

 

◊ Zoid

This is what I did on Hakkar last night. I have 8/8 Trans so I just told the other healers to only heal the current tank if they have less than 70%. Probably could have lowered that to 50% really. I will top them off with a greater heal every ten seconds or so and stack on the extra renew which would keep them full for a long time.

 

Scorpio!

Man, tokay really needs to pick it up.

 

◊ Kaubel

Take my place for example. That fight, I was on the same side as Ray and Moch - two healers assigned to go all out - and my job was to keep a few, specific people topped off with rank 4 HT and HoTs, while keeping NS heals handy and innervating Raylen. So, my spot on the HM is right where it should be.

The point? Heal meters don't tell the whole story. Specific people with specific duties will have different totals, so one person's low total isn't necessarily indicative of how good or bad he is at healing.

 

Rachel

Battle rez Rachel :(

 

◊ Kaubel

Next time, I promise. We had one rez left and I was holding it in case one of the MTs died. Honest!

 

Aghama

One thing I rarely see mentioned in this discussion is overhealing, which is understandable because it's a very difficult thing to measure. The bigger your heal, the more likely that some of that +healing gear is going to waste if you top off your target, whereas after a fight has begun it's really tough to "waste" mana regen gear. Of course a byproduct of dropping down in spell ranks to improve mana efficiency is that you're less likely to overheal, so maybe I don't have much of a point.

 

◊ Kaubel

Good enough point to mention, but it's because it's been talked about in other threads that it wasn't brought up here.

In general, overhealing ain't no thang as long as you're not consistently running out of mana. On the contrary, overheals always heal to 100%. Underheals don't.