Xizorz

I have a couple questions for the resident expert here:

How do you approach your relative weapon speed? The way I see it, 3 things matter:

A: Slower MH gives better instants, if you dont swap to a 2h
B: Faster MH than OH means more flurries are consumed by the MH
C: Faster weapons means more crits means flurries.

But all in all, its my opinion that weapon speed isn't of huge concern compared to weapon DPS/stats, not sure if I am missing anything.

Given access to anything up to Huhuran, and all of BWL, what are your top priorities for MH/OH? Warriors are not allowed to get the CTS/AQR until rogues have in my guild.

I'm thinking MH should be (Crul/Claw of the BD/Silithid Claw) and OH should be (Crul/Brutality Blade (already have)/Sand Polished Hammer (dont have to spend dkp)). The Blessed Quraji dagger looks incredible when I am able to get it. Should I be looking to get anything else?

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

XI-

If I were inclined to do this my weapons of choice would be DB/crul. A reasonably fast offhand with good stats and amazing DPS, and a really hard hitting MH.

 

hellsoap

perditions blade/deathbringer

 

◊ Wubwub

Personally I feel if you're going for DW straight dps, a faster mainhand isn't a half bad idea. Unless the dps spread of the two weapons is so ridiculous that the offhand does more damage, it's best for your mainhand to get the procs of flury, as you said, and, again as you said, more crits means more flurry means more attacks means more crits means more flurry means more attacks means more crits means blah blah blah. Especially if you're a troll. :P Berserking can be sorta nifty. Nothing beyond nifty unless you're doing vael or huhuran though. Some sort of heavy AE damage. I guess you could eat a cleave or two on Nefarian if you're in a position to do so without pissing healers off or something.

My knowledge of warriors is limited to a level 10 troll, a level 13 troll, a level 12 undead which I deleted, a level 21 night elf which I deleted, a level 27 night elf which I deleted, a level 32 tauren and a level 36 troll, and that's only on my two Mal'ganis accounts, one of which no longer exists. I plan on taking Buwbuw to 60 though. :P It's about time I leveled an alt to the cap.

What is your spec? I assume you have bloodthirst but where did you throw the other 21 points?

As for weapons, I would actually take Edge of Chaos main and sand polished offhand, I think. Since you can't get your hands on any high class swords, Thunderfury(elohel) or the CTS and such.

Alternatively, Silithid Claw/Edge of Chaos would be pretty damn nice, but as a dual wield dps warrior you would probably just bloodthirst/whirlwind and sunder when necessary, right?

 

Torael_7

elohel? Our resident fury warrior has this and Crul offhand. And more AP than is healthy. He does ridiculous things. Ridiculous things.

From what I gather from chatting with him, weapon speed is pretty much irrelevant, since your spammable move is Bloodthirst, and that's just a flat percentage of your attack power. However that might just apply if you've got as much AP as he does - his focus is on AP rather than crit, so he's running around with 1125 unbuffed, 1450ish with battleshout, so I guess being perma-flurried isn't quite as big a deal to him or something. I'm not quite sure what his crit chance is, though. I suppose if your gear isn't quite as good and being permaflurried is more important, than weapon speed probably matters more.

I assume he knows what he's talking about, though, since none of us rogues can even come close to him on the damage meters when he's DPSing rather than tanking. :(

 

Xizorz

I am speced 17 arms 34 fury. I'm curious though why Deathbringer gets so much support here, its not spectacular dps nor does it have hit/crit/atkpower, nor am I orc.

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

diospadre

It was availability, not power that he was laughing at.

 

Amberyl

Crul might be a better offhand than CTS with TF, but TF + CTS wins for looks. which we all know is most important.

my (very limited) philosophy of dual wield DPS places +hit very high, followed very closely by AP (strength) followed very close by +crit or agility. i think a good mix of gear would have somewhere around +10% chance to hit, around 1K unbuffed AP and around 25% chance to crit.

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6373/ambersig8mr.png

 

Amberyl

A. if you're dual wielding, then going for an MS build probably isnt the best idea, so the only instant where weapon damage might matter is overpower. bloodthirst, as everyone probably knows by now, is based purely on AP. faster weapons, however, also mean more chances for your opponent to dodge, therefore more overpower opportunities.

B is countered by C and vice versa.


conclusion? weapon speed for MH probably doesn't really matter.

as for offhand, faster offhand probably means slightly more rage, more chances to crit, more chances for opponents to dodge and trigger overpower.

slower offhand means more damage, DW spec (being % based) gives a much better benefit, also allows more "charges" of flurry and enrage to be consumed by MH.

conclusion? weapon speed for OH probably doesn't really matter either.

just go with the best weapons you can get with the best stats (and possibly looks).

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6373/ambersig8mr.png

 

Legato

Agree with Amberyl 100%. Who cares about speed, go with what you want.

If you want to be quick attacking don't expect high numbers. Go with crit and hit for the most part. If you want to be a harder hitting DW then you go with the slower (higher top end) weapons and focus more on Str/AP.

I am going for CTS MH, Crul OH.

Don't drink downstream from the horde. Moo!

 

Torael_7

You wouldn't know that it's a hard weapon to get going through the ranks of Myth's Fury, that's for sure...

 

◊ Wubwub

EJ was the fourth guild to kill Lucifron world wide, and we made quick progress in MC from that point onward. We just have terrible luck with drops.

Four sets of bindings, one completed thunderfury, and jesus please can we get some more elementium to drop?? That's all I ask for. Truly.

Believe me, I know how nice thunderfury is. It's like Diospadre said.

As for the original question, it's pretty much just personal preference. I would go with the best weapon you can aquire, but personally I favor a slower offhand. White damage is the best damage. Amberyl's hit->ap/str->crit/agi is pretty solid.

 

• Tehax

Edge of Chaos + Dooms Edge because axes are awesome and it they match and look oh so pretty~

 

Legato

If only Edge wasn't unique... mmmm

Don't drink downstream from the horde. Moo!

 

Xizorz

That combo does look sweet indeed, I wish the stats on Dooms Edge were more to my liking though.

http://ctprofiles.net/298322

 

norg

My (admittedly limited) understanding is that having an OH faster than your MH will make it use up more Flurries, but conversely it creates more anyway by critting more frequently etc. More Unbridaled Wrath procs though.

Incidentally a fair few of our DPS warriors seem have gotten hardons for DW lately. One switched from an Untamed Blade MS spec to Vis'kag/Maladath, one is using two rank 14 axes (he hurts), and one guy uses 2 Deathbringers (3 drops in 4 kills :lol:).

 

◊ Praetorian

In theory, unless some mechanics change, DW should strictly dominate 2h in the long run, because with DW you get 162.5% of the benefit from each point of attack power that you do with a two-hander.

 

XI-

Assuming the limiting factor is dmg output, and not threat generation ;). Also for PvP your giving up the MS debuff and controllable burst.

 

Anglakel

MS will always have a place in the long run because, as Indalamar once said, jousting rules pvp.

http://www.ctprofiles.net/1689539

 

• Arawethion

I think that whoever is itemizing two-handed weapons has a lot to say about this.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Toros

My ideal set?

Crul'shorukh, Blessed Qiraji Pugio.

Crul for the absolutely retarded amount of damage and AP, and Pugio for the ridiculous stats.

It'll be a while.

This game sucks.

 

Amberyl

i agree that MS will always have a place but i disagree that jousting always rules PVP.

the thing about slow 2 handers is that, even though you're potentially losing out on fewer swings, losing out on a swing with a slow 2 hander means ALOT more. even missing once with any of those weapons = SEVEN seconds of no default attacks and MS and WW aren't exactly cheap in rage. hamstring and PH also make it harder for people to strafe around.

that's the set i was kinda hoping to get before i got TF. then CTS dropped on our next BWL and no rogue wanted it, so here i am.

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6373/ambersig8mr.png

 

Torael_7

Bloodthirst also scales better with more AP than MS does, I believe.

Sure, but with either spec you only need 5% (8% raiding) to not miss your specials, and with 2h its only that 5%/8% to not miss at all.

 

genjuro

You need to apply the 50% off-hand damage modifier to the *total* off-hand damage (i.e. weapon DPS + attack power), not just the weapon damage. Taking that into account reduces the relative benefit from attack power to 120% for DW. Additionally, 2H gets a greater return from the base weapon DPS when compared with DW, so it's not that unbalanced in terms of base damage scaling.

Look at the simplest situation: a 100% hit rate and a 0% crit rate for untalented autoattack damage:
D = base weapon DPS of the 1H (A 2H has about 30% more damage than a same-level 1H)
A = DPS from attack power

Then your autoattack damage is:

2H: 1.3D + A
DW: [(D+A) + .5(D+A)] * .81 = 1.215D + 1.215A

The D and A coefficients tell you how each of those factors scale. In this simple scenario, the 2H warrior gets more benefit from his weapon damage but less from his attack power. The DW warrior will do slightly more damage overall, but certainly not enough to account for the huge disparity I regularly see between arms warriors and fury warriors in our raids.

The real reason DW warriors do so much more damage is not because of attack power, but because of +hit and +crit. Blizzard balanced the two fighting styles by giving DW warriors much higher base damage but also a much lower hit rate. This works well in the basic 5% hit, 5% crit scenario that Blizzard probably did most of their testing in, but it's horribly skewed towards DW when warriors start stacking the hit and crit. The problem is that hit and crit are percentage increases off the base damage and completely bypass the miss rate which is supposed to be the balancing factor. Remember, the base damage for 2H and DW are:

2H: 1.3D + A
DW: 1.5D + 1.5A

It gets even worse when fury warriors take DW spec, which increases the coefficient from 1.5 to 1.75.

You can still view this problem as one of attack power scaling, and +hit/crit "unlocking" that attack power. However you won't see much of a difference until you start stacking hit/crit. This problem is easily solvable from a mechanics perspective (distribute AP evenly over MH and OH and decrease the miss rate), but I suspect it would be nearly impossible at this point due to technical and balance reasons.

The other aspects of the class are pretty balanced..bloodthirst does about the same damage as mortal strike, flurry and DW/impale both produce about the same crit bonus, and DW spec vs 2H+weapon spec give similar base damage increases.

 

• Arawethion

Yes.

1 AP adds 3.3/14 = .23 damage to an MS
1 AP adds .45 to a BT.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.