More specifically, what I'm gathering out of all this:
1) Base hit is 95% for ranged attacks, against any level (Wodin said this confidently in another thread). So one would expect the miss rate you need to overcome against a raid boss to be 5.6%.
2) But, for reasons nobody knows, 6% to hit does not guarantee a hit against raid bosses.
3) Moreover, a higher amount of +hit (9?) allows you make the jump from "sometimes miss" to "never miss," so this behavior cannot be entirely explained away by a minimum miss rate (like the 1% minimum that casters seems to have).
How this all work out for 2H weapon users? Do they miss at 5.6% against bosses?
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 26th, 2006 @ 12:55AM
More specifically, what I'm gathering out of all this:
1) Base hit is 95% for ranged attacks, against any level (Wodin said this confidently in another thread). So one would expect the miss rate you need to overcome against a raid boss to be 5.6%.
2) But, for reasons nobody knows, 6% to hit does not guarantee a hit against raid bosses.
3) Moreover, a higher amount of +hit (9?) allows you make the jump from "sometimes miss" to "never miss," so this behavior cannot be entirely explained away by a minimum miss rate (like the 1% minimum that casters seems to have).
How this all work out for 2H weapon users? Do they miss at 5.6% against bosses?
Rogue specials miss at 5.6% against 63s. Rogue specials seem to follow the same to-hit rules as 2H autoattacks and 1H autoattacks.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Originally Posted by Kalman,April 26th, 2006 @ 2:51AM
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 26th, 2006 @ 12:55AM
More specifically, what I'm gathering out of all this:
1) Base hit is 95% for ranged attacks, against any level (Wodin said this confidently in another thread). So one would expect the miss rate you need to overcome against a raid boss to be 5.6%.
2) But, for reasons nobody knows, 6% to hit does not guarantee a hit against raid bosses.
3) Moreover, a higher amount of +hit (9?) allows you make the jump from "sometimes miss" to "never miss," so this behavior cannot be entirely explained away by a minimum miss rate (like the 1% minimum that casters seems to have).
How this all work out for 2H weapon users? Do they miss at 5.6% against bosses?
Rogue specials miss at 5.6% against 63s. Rogue specials seem to follow the same to-hit rules as 2H autoattacks and 1H autoattacks.
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 26th, 2006 @ 2:52AM
Originally Posted by Kalman,April 26th, 2006 @ 2:51AM
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 26th, 2006 @ 12:55AM
More specifically, what I'm gathering out of all this:
1) Base hit is 95% for ranged attacks, against any level (Wodin said this confidently in another thread). So one would expect the miss rate you need to overcome against a raid boss to be 5.6%.
2) But, for reasons nobody knows, 6% to hit does not guarantee a hit against raid bosses.
3) Moreover, a higher amount of +hit (9?) allows you make the jump from "sometimes miss" to "never miss," so this behavior cannot be entirely explained away by a minimum miss rate (like the 1% minimum that casters seems to have).
How this all work out for 2H weapon users? Do they miss at 5.6% against bosses?
Rogue specials miss at 5.6% against 63s. Rogue specials seem to follow the same to-hit rules as 2H autoattacks and 1H autoattacks.
So what happens if you wear +6% to hit?
Last time I checked, I didn't miss. I'll check again on Shazzrah tonight, since I strip down to my arcane resist suit for it, which has ~6.16% +hit (Striker's Mark gives 1%, Maladath gives .16%... although I was considering going daggers for an MC out of boredom, in which case I'd be at 6% +hit - the first 5% from Precision).
I'll wear it and test it tonight.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Last time I checked, I didn't miss. I'll check again on Shazzrah tonight, since I strip down to my arcane resist suit for it, which has ~6.16% +hit (Striker's Mark gives 1%, Maladath gives .16%... although I was considering going daggers for an MC out of boredom, in which case I'd be at 6% +hit - the first 5% from Precision).
Last time I checked, I didn't miss. I'll check again on Shazzrah tonight, since I strip down to my arcane resist suit for it, which has ~6.16% +hit (Striker's Mark gives 1%, Maladath gives .16%... although I was considering going daggers for an MC out of boredom, in which case I'd be at 6% +hit - the first 5% from Precision).
I'll wear it and test it tonight.
Anything ever come of this?
Didn't miss on Shazzrah, but that's a fairly small sample size, I admit (15 or 20 backstabs, it's been a couple weeks since I bothered going to MC.)
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
95% is against a level 60 mob, I think. Against a level 63 mob you need ~8%. Not certain about this.
Probably right. Just parsed a log with about 6-10 huhuran attempts. Miss rate was 8.8% (NR suit so exactly 0 +hit, and no surefooted).
To clarify, this is hunter numbers. I've been playing with +10 crossbows a bit, but I can't figure out if it does anything atm. Trueaim gaunts does look interesting again now that it covers all weapons and has 1% hit on it. Still too early to tell however.
It's entirely possible/likely that melee and ranged use mechanics with fundamental differences - it's known they don't use the exact same mechanic, as glancing blows don't affect ranged, so why assume they have to use the same +hit mechanics?
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
It's entirely possible/likely that melee and ranged use mechanics with fundamental differences - it's known they don't use the exact same mechanic, as glancing blows don't affect ranged, so why assume they have to use the same +hit mechanics?
The specific conflict I was referring to there was against Wodin's earlier claim that ranged attacks suffer no level-based hit penalty. If we throw that out, I think we have a consistent model of things where melee misses at 5.6% against a 63, and ranged at 8.6%.
i haven't actually run tests parsing a lot of data, but i know when i had +9 hit i pretty much never missed, and with +8 hit i at least notice myself missing now and then. please take that unsupported anecdote and treat is as gospal.
It's entirely possible/likely that melee and ranged use mechanics with fundamental differences - it's known they don't use the exact same mechanic, as glancing blows don't affect ranged, so why assume they have to use the same +hit mechanics?
The specific conflict I was referring to there was against Wodin's earlier claim that ranged attacks suffer no level-based hit penalty. If we throw that out, I think we have a consistent model of things where melee misses at 5.6% against a 63, and ranged at 8.6%.
Ah.
No, Wodin was referring to the glancing blows issue that melee attacks suffer from. Ranged don't see that mechanic, which is level-based.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I always wondered if mob elite status plays into this. I've kept improved feign death on practically every respec since 1.7 and in theory it's supposed to eliminate feign resist completely on all mobs L60 and below (96% +4% (2/2 imp FD)) ^X mobs = 100% success. Of course on bosses or other raid trash > L60, I would still get the occasional resist but the talents were otherwise working as intended and giving me 100% FD success in the rest of the world.
Until one day I was running around Stromguard Keep and got FD resisted by (IIRC) a L45 Elite.
So I had thought that elites are supposed to just be regular mobs with X times the HP/AP but I've been thinking that their effective level is perhaps raised too when it comes to things like hit%, FD% etc.
/shrug
---
Been running around with +9 to +11 hit and don't recall missing except when swapping in FR/NR. Reached +13 hit with gear/spec and was finally able to drop surefooted to try 5/31/15. Fights like Kurinaxx screw up my historical data on missing though. =/
I always wondered if mob elite status plays into this. I've kept improved feign death on practically every respec since 1.7 and in theory it's supposed to eliminate feign resist completely on all mobs L60 and below (96% +4% (2/2 imp FD)) ^X mobs = 100% success. Of course on bosses or other raid trash > L60, I would still get the occasional resist but the talents were otherwise working as intended and giving me 100% FD success in the rest of the world.
Until one day I was running around Stromguard Keep and got FD resisted by (IIRC) a L45 Elite.
So I had thought that elites are supposed to just be regular mobs with X times the HP/AP but I've been thinking that their effective level is perhaps raised too when it comes to things like hit%, FD% etc.
I always wondered if mob elite status plays into this. I've kept improved feign death on practically every respec since 1.7 and in theory it's supposed to eliminate feign resist completely on all mobs L60 and below (96% +4% (2/2 imp FD)) ^X mobs = 100% success. Of course on bosses or other raid trash > L60, I would still get the occasional resist but the talents were otherwise working as intended and giving me 100% FD success in the rest of the world.
Until one day I was running around Stromguard Keep and got FD resisted by (IIRC) a L45 Elite.
So I had thought that elites are supposed to just be regular mobs with X times the HP/AP but I've been thinking that their effective level is perhaps raised too when it comes to things like hit%, FD% etc.
/shrug
---
Been running around with +9 to +11 hit and don't recall missing except when swapping in FR/NR. Reached +13 hit with gear/spec and was finally able to drop surefooted to try 5/31/15. Fights like Kurinaxx screw up my historical data on missing though. =/
Feign is a spell and uses yet another set of mechanics; we're talking about your auto/multi/aimed/tranq attack mechanics.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Hello. This is my first post here. Before getting on subject I would like to introduce myself. My character name is Nightarcher. I'm a GM of Twenty Four Seven on Dunemaul EU. I've been playing hunter since US open beta and practicaly day one from EU retail. I would like to thank Elitist Jerks for running this fine forum and sharing wisdom with others :) I can say our guild learned alot fom this forum.
Now back to the subject about "hunter and +hit"
I was told alot of things about hunter chance to miss. Most common is that 60lvl mob 95% to hit chance. So +5 hit will give you guaranteed hit. Its typicaly considered that a boss is 63 level so it should mean you need +8 hit. Yet from experiments i did wearing +8 hit gear in BWL i found myself missing several times.
I had someone even tell me that I need +11% hit and quoted some article that above lvl 60 you need +2hit to actually gain 1 (5+3x2 = 11%). So so time ago to proove him wrong I decided to go full hit gear in next BWL run and recorded stats of all fights. In my theory I needed +8 hit since its commonly considered a boss to be lvl 63. Already after Razorgore I saw that I was wrong and I had misses already but I decidede to keep +8 hit to get a rough estimate what chance to miss on bosses with +8 hit gear. The total was about 0.5% miss chance on average using +8 hit. The only bosses I didn't have a single miss with +8 hit gear was Firemaw and Flamegor. First one was probably luck 90/90 arrows hit. Second one I died by shadowflame and aoe while doing first tranq (so its 1 out 1 :) ). Anyway checking those stats on Chromagus I decided to get one more hit chance to be sure on the tranqs. And I got 196/196 landed. Since then I didn't make any records but I never saw missing with +9 hit gear. I have Nightelf so no +bow/gun racials.
Just if anyone interested on the stats I got from that raid:
62 63 1.59% Razorgore +8 hit
126 128 1.56% Vaelastrasz +8 hit
150 150 0.00% Broodlord +8 hit
90 90 0.00% Firemaw +8 hit
325 326 0.31% Ebonroc +8 hit
1 1 0.00% Flamegor +8 hit
196 196 0.00% Chromagus +9 hit
97 98 1.02% Nefarian +8 hit
1047 1052 0.48% Total
One more matter. Someone in my guild said that there is a default 1% miss on pvp nomatter you chance hit. Anyone can comfirm/debunk?
Currently gathering data against bosses wearing +6% hit. Will (after a couple of more raids) swap to higher hit chance, then after that go to 0%.
Bosses ranging from Lucifron to C'thun, as many as possible, over several raids, wearing the exact same gear each time.
Will post more when I got some data parsed =)
Over 6MB combatlog at the moment :P
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Anyway, concerning hit% for melee: To never miss for a rogue on yellow damage must be higher than 6% (for the 5.6% miss principle) and I've missed several occasions with 7% and possibly 8%. I've read the principle that it doesn't apply linearly/adds 1% per level higher, but I think mobs scale totally differently to players so the 0.04% per defense is totally meaningless when concerned with mobs. One thing to remember is that level+4 mobs (still orange) are significantly more difficult to hit and level+5 (beginning of red) are extremely hard to hit; I don't see a real reason for them to switch dice systems when moving onto level+4 and above mobs, so it's probably a curve that's flatter on nearer (and thus lower) level mobs, so possibly an n^x curve which zero's on 95% (that is level difference is 0).
I'm not sure I believe the 'always chance of missing' thing though as how small a number must the blizzard computer deal with with enough hit%? And why put artificial caps on (which don't correspond to the amount of digits they get to use)?
My 2 pence (hailing from the UK here). Apologies if someone has already said things similar to this.
This is excellent; it seems to verify the 8.6% miss for Hunters (you forgot about the .6% due to the skill difference). If you remove the Chrommagus data, it fits perfectly.
This is excellent; it seems to verify the 8.6% miss for Hunters (you forgot about the .6% due to the skill difference). If you remove the Chrommagus data, it fits perfectly.
He had +9% for the Chromaggus fight, so it fits it even more so.
I compiled this screenshot over 5-6 MC and BWL runs a good few months back (note: had different gear than what I have in my profile atm...), when I was wondering about this very thing. I was wearing +6 to hit over the entire sample, and did essentially nothing outside raiding over the entire time. Obviously we cant really tell much since I had data from the trash mobs as well as the bosses, but it is enough to know that after +6 hit you have very, very, little benefit on fights that do not require tranq shots. Even considering that I had trash in the sample, missing the small numbers of shots that I did has to say something about the point at which more + to hit does essentially nothing for DPS.
<Gwaihir> mage time is like booterang
<Gwaihir> AUGH BOOTERANG
<Gwaihir> AUGH MAGE TIME
<Ama> AUGH MAGE TIME
<XI|> AUGH MAGE TIME
04/26/06, 4:51 AM
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