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Old 03/16/06, 6:17 PM   #26
subscience
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Mage
 
Ner'zhul
Oh, and here's some numbers regarding Improved Demo Shout in regards to a more PvP environment.

I know a lot of 31 Arms / 20 Fury Warriors or 2H Fury Warriors who don't know where to spend their 6th-10th talent points in the Fury tree. Some go with Booming Voice and others with Imp. Demo Shout.

Well, I was curious myself as to how well Imp. Demo Shout works out in PvP, so here are some numbers.

Demo Shout: -140 AP
Imp. Demo Shout: -196 AP

A Warrior with an Unstoppable Force, 1000 AP, and 2/2 Impale vs. a target with 0% mitigation.

Average TUF damage: 233.5

No Demo Shout
Average Melee hit: 504.4
Average Melee crit: 1008.8
Average MS hit: 629.2
Average MS crit: 1384.2

Demo Shout
Average Melee hit: 466.9
Average Melee crit: 933.8
Average MS hit: 596.2
Average MS crit: 1311.7

Improved Demo Shout
Average Melee hit: 451.7
Average Melee crit: 903.4
Average MS hit: 583.0
Average MS crit: 1282.6

Damage difference between Demo Shout & Imp. Demo Shout
Average Melee hit: -15.2
Average Melee crit: -30.4
Average MS hit: -13.2
Average MS crit: -29.1


--


It makes sense that there is less damage reduction on MS from regular/improved Demo Shout due to the 3.3s weapon speed normalization (vs. the full 3.8s bonus on a regular melee swing).

Feel free to double check my numbers. :)
For the MS math, I used (average weapon damage) + (bonus MS damage) + (AP*speed / 14). Is this correct?

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Old 03/16/06, 6:21 PM   #27
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
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Originally Posted by subscience,March 16th, 2006 @ 5:17PM
For the MS math, I used (average weapon damage) + (bonus MS damage) + (AP*speed / 14). Is this correct?
yes, if "speed" is "normalized speed."

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
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Old 03/16/06, 6:23 PM   #28
subscience
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Ner'zhul
Whoops. Yea, I meant to say I used a 3.3 constant.

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Old 03/16/06, 6:40 PM   #29
Muraevin
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Warrior
 
Kilrogg
Sulf works great for fury, its a nice change of pace and was a considerable dps increase for me as far as pve goes. This was my spec with 2h fury (duel wield now) and if you miss imp charge you can go 2 points into intercept instead of one witch more than makes up for the loss.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

the biggest problem i have with fury is that you cant change back and forth between all dps and defiance without missing out on tact mastery and imp overpower, witch is very painfull for me :<

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Old 03/16/06, 7:28 PM   #30
Ultramax
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Muraevin,March 16th, 2006 @ 4:40PM
the biggest problem i have with fury is that you cant change back and forth between all dps and defiance without missing out on tact mastery and imp overpower, witch is very painfull for me :<
Well now, isn't this interesting. Perhaps you can lend some support to my cause.

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Old 03/16/06, 7:47 PM   #31
Muraevin
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Murloc Warrior
 
Kilrogg
wouldnt that be nice :D

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Old 03/16/06, 9:17 PM   #32
Walsk
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Has there been a confirmation on the Anger Management change mentioned earlier in the thread?

Intimidating Shout, Anger Management, Flurry, Sweeping Strikes, Accurascope... it feels like you can raid every week to move 2 steps forward with your gear, then the patch hits and you get moved 2 steps back.

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Old 03/16/06, 11:04 PM   #33
Shik
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Murloc Warrior
 
Jubei'Thos
At the top end of gear 2H Fury doesn't really lack the Arms 'burst damage', just the MS debuff, which depending on the fight, can be either worthless, or the most valuable contribution the warrior is making.

For sustained damage, especially horde with windfury totems, 2H Fury shines. Flurry increases DPS way more than weapon specs, and fully raid buffed warriors have enough AP than Bloodthirst is an efficient rage dump.

The biggest drawback isn't DPS, its flexibility, especially if you like having prot talents and overpower/tm. The DPS increase isn't enough for me to be able to give that up, especially with last-stand + lifegiving gem proving to be a powerful counter to trinket mages/locks/shamans.

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Old 03/17/06, 4:22 AM   #34
aertifact
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Murloc Warrior
 
Frostmane
I havnt seen any official statement from blizz about the AM nerf. I have heard something about the issue with warriors filling up they'r ragebar with bloodrage and autoattack, will indeed be fixed in the upcoming patch.

How blizzard are planning on fixing this beats me and if they nerf the warrior at the same time, that wouldnt really suprise me abit. They will prolly sit with the feeling: "Good job bob, we fixed 2 issues in one solution here"

They bether fix the issue with taking us out of combat after bloodrage are done nomather autoattack or not, damn nublets.

The GC is defently 1sec, not 1.5sec.

Thanks for the replyes on my issue. :P
Keep coming with comments please.

About that spamming hamstring(without any cost reducement) with wf, that doesnt sound very clever in my eye's. Let me elaborate.
Say you do it 10times, you should then have 2proccs since its 20% proc ratio. That will cost you 100rage to those 10hamstrings, what will you get for 100 rage used on hamstring? You will get to extra instant attacks, meaning it will cost about 50rage for a gimped MS(and without the debuff ofc).
Aint that abit expensive? Yeah, sure you fill up u'r ragebar in some sort of degree when it proccs, but wouldnt it be full anyways? Since you wasted alot of rage on hamstring.

With my weapon I have som issues getting enough rage when doing execute, its just to slow for execute spam with the GC tick. Since I also wanted to make recklessness as efficient possible. I could allways get some decent 1h for dw when execute spam, but currently I dont have that and I wanted to test something else out.
So what I tryed; fill up ragebar, pop recklessness go spam slam. There you go, quite good damage boost. Havnt really calculated on it, but sounds like a quite good use of recklessness, any thoughs?

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Old 03/17/06, 10:18 AM   #35
aertifact
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Murloc Warrior
 
Frostmane
To fast written reply and no edit button(or am I infact blind?), excuse my english :)

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Old 03/17/06, 10:27 AM   #36
Taeme
Soda Popinski
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mug'thol
If don't rage dump in raids, my bar is always full and can not be emptied.

So I don't really see what difference your math makes - you spamstring rage dump to use up rage in the hopes of more damage.

you're the one that decided to trust me

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Old 03/17/06, 12:23 PM   #37
rline
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Ultramax,March 16th, 2006 @ 6:28PM
Originally Posted by Muraevin,March 16th, 2006 @ 4:40PM
the biggest problem i have with fury is that you cant change back and forth between all dps and defiance without missing out on tact mastery and imp overpower, witch is very painfull for me :<
Well now, isn't this interesting. Perhaps you can lend some support to my cause.
ehehehehehehehhe

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Old 03/17/06, 10:12 PM   #38
Walsk
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Taeme,March 17th, 2006 @ 8:27AM
If don't rage dump in raids, my bar is always full and can not be emptied.

So I don't really see what difference your math makes - you spamstring rage dump to use up rage in the hopes of more damage.
Warning: Back of envelope theorycraft crap below. It could be entirely BS.

You have to consider that when an extra attack procs you get more rage, unlike Mortal Strike which just consumes rage. Also when you work in Sword Spec and Hand of Justice, which can also proc off the Hamstrings, it gets really interesting.

- Totem + Sword Spec + HoJ = 27% to proc an extra attack
- It would take an average of 3.7 Hamstrings to proc an extra attack, a cost of 37 rage.
- Those 3.7 Hamstrings will hit for ~166 damage (with no armor). This is comparable to the Mortal Strike damage bonus.
- I know that an extra attack from a raid level sword generates more than 7 rage, making up the difference between the cost of spamming Hamstrings to get an extra attack and a Mortal Strike. On the other hand a Mortal Strike has a 27% chance to proc an extra attack so it's probably a wash.

Hamstring vs Mortal Strike is looking pretty close in terms of damage and efficiency. Using the ZG exalted neck to make Hamstring cost 8 rage tilts the scales even if it isn't the best DPS neck. If Hamstring crits proc Flurry, this looks like a really effective rage dump for the 2H Fury crowd to keep Flurry up at all times (even though they won't have Sword Spec).

I never really considered Hamstring spam before. Time to break open Excel when I have some time.

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Old 03/20/06, 1:01 PM   #39
subscience
Great Tiger
 
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Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Walsk,March 17th, 2006 @ 9:12PM
- Totem + Sword Spec + HoJ = 27% to proc an extra attack
Those percentages are independent and not additive, I believe. Basically, HoJ + Sword Spec != 7% chance for an extra attack simply because HoJ can proc from SS and vice versa.

I haven't really churned out the math, but would they be multiplicative rather than additive?

I'm not sure whether or not SS/HoJ can proc off of itself (with all the recent Warrior changes and whatnot), either. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

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Old 03/20/06, 1:50 PM   #40
 Hamlet
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Mal'Ganis
Judging from the way everything works in this game, it's probably additive.

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 03/21/06, 1:25 PM   #41
Heat
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Priest
 
One of the more crazy people I've become friends with is a troll warrior named Bartar, who was the second person on our server to get High Warlord. He currently mainhands the HW sword, and offhands the dagger, with around +12% to hit from gear, and boy is his damage output insane.

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Old 03/23/06, 4:26 PM   #42
hbalce1
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
I am always a bit taken back by people claiming that fury isn't as viable for PvP as arms. True, fury lacks the ms debuff, but in return you get 10s off intercept, more damage from execute (ok, minimal but more), and 10 free rage every 30s from zerk rage. On top of this you get +20% damage and fear immunity for 30s every three mins, and then every time you crit, you attack 30% faster, which reeks havoc with casters, especially if you dual wield. A fury spec warrior should absolutley obliterate a priest and warlock every time simple because they screw up casting and can't be feared away (just let the lock burn deathcoil first). Lastly, but certainly not least, you get an instant attack that scales better with gear than ms, and can be used even if you are disarmed.

The biggest knock on fury spec is that you can't also spec deep into protection if you want to pick up tactical mastery. Of course if you are spec'ing for raiding, the amount of stance dancing you are going to do is minimal at least through BWL. So in that regard you cold just forgo tac mastery and pick up last stand.

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Old 03/23/06, 5:19 PM   #43
Muraevin
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Warrior
 
Kilrogg
Its not that fury isnt doable in pvp, rather that the massive burst damage + the debuff is so godly.

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Old 03/23/06, 5:23 PM   #44
♦ Praetorian
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Muraevin,March 23rd, 2006 @ 4:19PM
Its not that fury isnt doable in pvp, rather that the massive burst damage + the debuff is so godly.
Pretty much. It's the debuff, really. Yeah, if you're smart, you can hold your own against a healer 1v1 as a Fury warrior (though you'd probably walk right through them if you had MS), but in group PvP, the debuff is effectively equivalent to thousands of points of damage. By halving the healing done to the person, you're effectively doubling the DPS of every one of your groupmates. If you have 3-4 people focus-firing on someone, our healers can probably keep them up if they have a decent health pool. If that person now has the MS debuff on them, they're dead. Simple as that.

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Old 03/23/06, 6:18 PM   #45
subscience
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Ner'zhul
Quick question regarding the new ranks of HS and Revenge: Is there any data available that gives an exact or estimated change in hate generation of either skill?

I didn't want to create a whole new thread for this, so sorry for the slight OT-ness.

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Old 03/23/06, 7:42 PM   #46
EgaL
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
<GSV>
Baelgun (EU)
Totem + Sword Spec + HoJ = 27% to proc an extra attack
- It would take an average of 3.7 Hamstrings to proc an extra attack, a cost of 37 rage.
- Those 3.7 Hamstrings will hit for ~166 damage (with no armor). This is comparable to the Mortal Strike damage bonus.
- I know that an extra attack from a raid level sword generates more than 7 rage, making up the difference between the cost of spamming Hamstrings to get an extra attack and a Mortal Strike. On the other hand a Mortal Strike has a 27% chance to proc an extra attack so it's probably a wash.
They arent additive I think. The chance to nt get an additional attack is:
0.8 * 0.95 * 0.98 = 0.7448 so the chance to get an additional attack is 25.52 percent. Included are the chances to get two extra attacks and an extra attack + windfury proc. And you could trigger another windfury proc/extra attack with the extra attack/windfury proc...

Hamstring spam relays greatly on chance and is only viable with windfury imo. The sure way would be to use a mortal strike but because it has a cooldown you could do hamstrings while you wait for the next ms if your rage is sufficent.

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Old 03/24/06, 6:56 AM   #47
Drauk
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Drauk
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Originally Posted by aertifact,March 17th, 2006 @ 3:22AM
The GC is defently 1sec, not 1.5sec.
GC is 1 sec for rogues and 1.5 sec for everyone esle. Don't forget that visual represenation of cooldown is skewed by ping. GetActionCooldown() is your friend.

Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.

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Old 03/24/06, 8:37 AM   #48
XI-
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Drauk,March 24th, 2006 @ 5:56AM
Originally Posted by aertifact,March 17th, 2006 @ 3:22AM
The GC is defently 1sec, not 1.5sec.
GC is 1 sec for rogues and 1.5 sec for everyone esle. Don't forget that visual represenation of cooldown is skewed by ping. GetActionCooldown() is your friend.
Wodin would beg to differ :P

Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
in before JOHN FUCKING MADDEN

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Old 03/24/06, 8:48 AM   #49
Drauk
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Originally Posted by XI-,March 24th, 2006 @ 7:37AM
Wodin would beg to differ :P
http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-gene...p-vs-pve-2.html

(and the post above it)

Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.

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Old 03/24/06, 9:29 AM   #50
EgaL
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
<GSV>
Baelgun (EU)
I liked the first post on that page:

Originally Posted by Iannis
I agree, pvp and pve should be subject to seperate mechanics and influenced in unique ways. You're talking time, you're talking money, and neither in insignificant measure. The design would be the easy part.

We're looking at a case of better luck next time.
QFT

Lets all hope they make Diablo 3 a good game ;)

On the topic: only because someone in that forum writes "armageddon is tomorrow" will you waste your whole money today?

I mean its no proof in there is it?

A proof would be spamming one (instant) button and taking a defined time in which you count how many instants are used. The problem there is you dont have enough enrgy/rage to constantly spam instants besides in the vael encounter.

Let a warrior hamstring spam and a rogue sinister strike spam for a defined time during the vael encounter, if they have the same amount of instants, they have the same global cooldown.

The instants of all mana classes have long cooldowns anyways so its unimportant there.

I know that weapon swapping for rogues triggers a 1 second cooldown, where it triggers a 1.5 sec cooldown for all other classes (thats listed in some patch notes I am just too lazy to quote it :P). My guess is that poster you re referring to got that mixed up. Just test it at the next vael encounter bring your numbers along. That would be a proof.

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