Kaejin

The budget they put into gear definitely seems to have gone downhill. They recycle a lot of item models and designs as offset (and now all of the armor types of the same type share models in t9), which is irritating to say the least when they've said before that silhouette is important to them for classes in PvP.

 

Spink

There was an interesting lore reason/understandable reason for the similar look posited on the mmo-champ comments. Since we're receiving this armor from the Argent Crusade and they're trying to make an army to assault Icecrown then it might be that they're trying to uniform us up a bit to turn us into more of an army than a ragtag force of heroes. Sort of like the different colored stormtrooper suits in Star Wars: Republic Commando/Clone Wars etc.

I agree that it is cheap and lame after the hype of different stuff for alliance and horde created an expectation for full tier equivalent sets for every class twice. I guess this goes along with the discussion earlier in the thread with whether this is Sunwell or an actual tier according to blizzard and art-wise I think it is along the lines of AQ/Sunwell rather than BT/Ulduar.

 

Duilliath

These are the PvE sets. They've said that PvE and PvP sets would have separate looks.

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

• Falk

e: ignore

 

Kaejin

So it's alright for everyone sharing an armor class to look the same in PvE? It's a double standard that doesn't make most of us happy. Gear variety doesn't feel like it means much when it all looks the same. Uld has a lot of gear, so it's understandable that some of it shares models or are just recolors, but when the only unique loot comes from Algalon or the fact that it's the only loot of it's type, it just seems lazy.

 

Razzberry

Were people honestly expecting Blizzard to make 20 (30 when you include Season 7) completely different models of gear this patch?

Even sharing the models among the same armour type of your faction, that's still 8 new models of gear (instead of the usual 10). And even then, they've managed to still make the Alliance plate armour differ in certain ways (e.g. graphic on the chest). I assume they'll continue to make similar slight changes on the other sets as well.

I'll quite gladly look like the hunters in my raid if it means that I get to walk into Icecrown as a member of an army of Horde soliders and not have to look the same as all the blue space goats running around Dalaran.

 

Starfire

I figure Coliseum raid is more analogous to Ahn'Qiraj; since the Ahn'Qiraj sets also looked very similar to each other. I mean more or less every "cycle" we really get 4 sets, but only 3 named tiers or something. (Tier 1 2 3 and then AQ gear, Tier 4 5 6 and then Sunwell gear).

 

Razzberry

Item models is an area that Blizzard has always been fairly lazy/frugal with, so I just had realistic expectations for the new content. I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy with a unique set for every class on each faction, but I'm hardly surprised they've gone this way. As mentioned above, AQ40 and Sunwell did something similar with their item design.

Flavour-wise, I think the idea of faction specific gear is fantastic, especially as we confront Arthas in Icecrown. Given the choice of looking similar to other Horde players of the same armour type or all members of the same class across both factions, I would choose the former every time. I liked the old vanilla PvP gear for a similar reason.

 

Zurai

I don't know; why do you act like they can invest 100% of their money into the current version of WoW when they have 4 other projects being worked on (Diablo 3, WoW expansion 3, unnamed MMO, and StarCraft 2)?

You're also vastly underestimating the cost of art assets. Just the concept art is likely to run into the thousands (two artists each paid $60k/yr working 40 hours a week; 10 hours of time devoted to sketching up concept art, going to meetings about it, revising it, getting it approved, etc, yields $600 for concepting a single set of armor).

 

Leviathon

Throwing more money at something doesn't make more get done. It is a lot of work to creature a model, texture and then fit it to every single race/gender and I'd prefer seeing my patches coming quicker and them putting more effort into the real T9 in Icecrown. I see these sets on the same level as the AQ40 and Sunwell sets and really expected them to be like that.

 

Mideci

There is an "overhead" cost associated with unique item models, textures, etc. that affects the performance of the game client side. Every extra model that's active on your client takes resources in memory, CPU, et al. That, more than the thousands of dollars it might cost to develop art, is a bigger reason that there are limited item models. I really don't think it's a budgetary concern; although I do agree that many areas of the game have a certain number of people working on them and that's it -- whether or not we think they can afford more people to work on them.

 

Zurai

Textures are far more memory memory intensive than models are. Models are actually quite compact -- they're just a series of points (3 floating point numbers, or 12 to 24 bytes depending on how precise they are). An extremely intricate model is still going to clock in at around 500kb. A 1024x1024 texture with mipmaps, however, is going to be vastly bigger, since they have to be stored in memory as bitmaps. A single pixel of color data is up to 4 bytes, and 1024*1024*4*1.33 (for the mipmap; the rule of thumb is mipmaps add 1/3 to the size) = 5578425 bytes, or roughly 5.5 MB, about 10-11 times as much memory as the model for it takes up.

Reducing the number of models is absolutely going to improve performance (or, rather, not hurt performance as badly), but it's not that big an increase overall considering they're still doing the same number of unique textures.

 

Calixtus

While technically true, the level of interaction required to design the look of Random Drop Epic #24 or Hunter Set Item is a lot less than balancing a class. Put it this way, if I hired three artists and locked them into three separate rooms, provided them with the same class/dungeon background information and then divided the separate loot between them, the result is going to still going to come togheter a whole lot better than if you tried the same approach with class design. If I make a change to the druid class, I need to sync it with every other designer to ensure that it fits in with the overall class balance. If I make new druid shapeshifting skins, why would I need to coordinate with whoever about the warlocks?

Character related art in general, and item art in particular, is arguably the most independant area of development in the entire game. "Man month" arguments are less appliable than in regards to anything else. Budgetary arguments are, more or less as always when it comes to this game, almost laughable.

Having said that, graphics - while important - are rarely the primary thing driving people away from a game. If you're going to gain profits from not expanding a section seriously, art is an excellent place to do it. I'm not saying I disagree with their decision - on the contrary really - but you're really rosetinting if you think they're not doing it because "it CAN'T be done". There are still pre-WoW games that offered more character customizability and more complex graphics, and if they could do it, Blizzard with something like 25 times the customer base certainly can. Again, I'm not criticizing them for this, just pointing out that arguing that they couldn't do it if they wanted to is somewhat, ah, unrealistic.

And having said that, I don't think the sets look that bad in the first place. Money aside, I think the lorewise argument of having an army assault Icecrown as opposed to the ragtag group of heroes we're used to operating as, is a good idea. I wouldn't have objected if there were more class differing details, little skulls for deathknights or stormwind eagles for paladins in the textures, but by and large they look good.

While I'm typing anyway, the problem with "partial tier upgrades" at this point is their more specified policy on integrating the PvP epics into the gear equation, as opposed to Sunwell and very much opposed to AQ40 upgrades. While they might have turned out that way artwise, I really don't think they should be thought of in that manner. Part of the point of the "catchup epics" is to avoid having to rerun old instances, to ensure that the current tier is the tier.

 

Ukerric

To be honest, there's a second, different reason about not multiplying unnecessarily models and texture. Memory. Since 3.0, WoW has started to baloon in memory. 2Gb is becoming barely enough to survive getting into Dalaran - with fragmentation, you get out of Dalaran and back in, and your computer starts to stutter (at least mine does), requiring you to log off and back in to clear it.

That is due to the enormous amount of different armor models and textures you need to load in that area.

As you add textures and models, you add to the memory load of Dalaran. Everyone remarqued about memory costs, but did you note how close to limits we are? So, you start requiring people to upgrade their hardware. And one of the reasons WoW is so popular is that it's not very demanding in terms of hardware - or at least it wasn't when launched. When you require people to upgrade their computers, you start losing potential customers, so the question becomes: how many customers do I retain with fancy models vs how many do I lose because the game becomes slowly unplayable.

I doubt Blizzard is unaware of this balancing act. Oh, and yes, memory is cheap. If you can install it yourself and your computer supports it. And your family (parents/spouse) looks kindly on your hobby.

 

Nemantopia

True, even four and five year old computers can handle four gigs of RAM, but as Ukerric said there are still substantial upgrade costs for the basic hardware, and that includes graphics cards. Modern comps come standard with around four-six, sure, but not everyone's computer was bought this year in America with up to date memory, processor, and cards. If you need the proof of spiffy-graphics vs playability, I would point you to the Wii vs PS3. Designing something for the max handling because you can is not a good business model. When the practical cost of a game isn't the subscription +three box costs, but includes upgrading your computer in any way just to handle being in a city people start to shy away. I have the fortune of having replaced my computer recently, so even 'Dalalag' is negligible to me. On my old computer and the computers of many guildmates, moving around too quickly in Dalaran is either impossible or causes a crash/freeze. Would I like a little more differention? Sure, but I'd also like to not be one of the minority in the guild that can actually play the game too.

This is not the signature you're looking for. You are free to move along.

-Curse you, Raglu!
Generation 28:
The first time you see this, copy it into your signature on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

 

Mordinm

While graphics are far from my specialty with regards to computers I had always assumed that the increase in requirements had a lot more to do with Shoulders that host twin mount dooms and sparkly spiny weapons of death that are much more widely distributed in a smaller city. The graphics lag seems to be far more related to more dramatic spell effects or the fact that both factions are cramed into a very small city and unable to fly in this expansion.

It's true that throwing money at a problem can be a waste of time but this hasn't been a short term problem. If blizz deiced that they wanted to add 200 more gear models to the game in the next month they probably couldn't do it at any price. What they could do though is invest in and expand the art department to the point where we don't have this issue next expansion.

 

azrale

If we are looking at the possibility of feature dragonflights being centerpieces for raids, why would the red be included?

 

KTalisman

I agree with this point. In addition, it's just like they said for the PvP sets, from a story point of view these aren't rare and ancient artifacts pulled from the bowels of a thousand year old dungeon, these are functional armor sets mass-produced by the faction's crafters. It wouldn't make sense if they were all extravagant and totally unique.

Again from a story point of view, a lot of people think the Tournament is a silly waste of time, and yet people want the Argent Crusade to waste time coming up with 20 different unique Armor designs that all look better than T8, rather than knocking together 8 solid sets quickly that get the job done then moving on to more important things? Oh wait I forgot, the AC gets millions of gold per month from their repair vendors therefore they should just hire more blacksmiths, because every creative problem can clearly be solved by having more money thrown at it.

 

• Spleen

It's armor design, not Duke Nukem Forever.

Cosmetic appeal and variation are factors in player enjoyment. I'm not going to pretend this aspect of an MMO isn't a fashion show and some of us prefer that if we're all going to look the same, we don't "look like ass". That's not an unreasonable expectation considering how much bank blizzard is making.

Jousting fears aside, on the gameplay front the tournament promises to be a nice opportunity to shift from vehicular (I'm thinking of a rhyming word with the same number of syllables) combat attached to a weekly lockout timer. It's an opportunity to expand on lore, if they deliver on developing different tournament bosses with flavor text.

The shift in badge gear is also encouraging for those of us who like 5-mans and having a goal that doesn't only revolve around raiding and high-end crafting.

Isms and ologies. Give me facts.

 

Mr. Crow

Why would the Red be excluded? All kinds of circumstances warrant squaring off against a Red -- Vaelastrasz in BWL, the Onyxia attunement process for Horde involved downing a Red... though it hardly counts since it was never released, Warcraft Adventures had Thrall fighting against a particularly petulant and manipulative Alexstrasza. Even fighting against Keristrasza in the Nexus made sense at the time.

The question I would ask is why we would be fighting against the Reds in their own shrine. Fighting Sartharion in the Black Shrine makes sense, because they're the Blacks and they're Up To No Good. Fighting the Blues in the Blue Shrine would make sense because of the Nexus War. Fighting the Reds only makes sense if some faction of the Red Flight has been compromised in some way --- I really don't see us fighting the Queen or her Consort with as much as they heart the mortal races, but a rogue faction taking over the shrine would be a method. Or better yet, we're not fighting against the Reds in the Red Shrine, but fighting WITH the Reds against an incoming threat.

There's all kinds of ways to play the matter -- it's just how Blizzard wants to do encounter design and what story they want to tell. If Sartharion is any example, it'll be a modicum of story and an excuse for Phat Lewtz.

 

Axanor

It would definitely be nice to see tiered 5-mans in the future, perhaps laying off a bit on the initial glut of 5 mans and Heroic 5 mans to spread them out over the course of the expansion's life cycle.

 

Darian_TruBlade

To an extent this is true, but keep in mind the necessity of preserving the general principle of a game's art style. When Artist A comes out of his den with his concept art for the druid skins at the same time artists B and C emerge with their Warlock/Hunter sets respectively, it's the art lead's job to look over it all and send them back with modifications which will be determined largely on the basis of making the concepts conform to WoW's art style. If this isn't coordinated at all, you risk inconsistency, which invariable draws more attention than "ugly" models that are at least consistent in design with the rest of the game.

Inconsistency like this.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Rezdan

It's going to be interesting to see how much faster progression will be with 3.2 introducing the ability to extend raid lockouts. It's definately going to make the later instance bosses more accessible to those guilds that have trouble performing consistently. Arguably, progression currently requires most guilds to prove they really know a fight since they'll have to come up against the boss again to get to the next boss and this feature fairly removes this (small for some but bigger for others) roadblock. Still, I believe this will generally increase the progression competition among the middle of the pack guilds.

 

Grizzly

I wonder how this will affect pickup groups. I would hope everyones ID would reset except those who wish to opt into staying with the current raid ID to avoid people being locked into a second week of a crappy raid.

Also i could see this being a big deal for smaller guilds selling raid ID's. More so when T9+ comes along with lowbie guilds stuck on Yogg choosing to restart Ulduar the next week. They can get a high end guild to bring in an alt so that next week the high end guild can do T9+ content and only have to kill Yogg/Alganon in Ulduar.

 

Maleficus

I'm not sure this will be a big issue as it was with Illidan only IDs in Burning Crusade. From what I've seen the BiS items are fairly evenly spread across all the different hardmodes. Algalon does have more ilvl 239 items, but since you only need to kill 2 bosses to access him it hardly seems worth giving up hardmode Watcher/Council/Vezax loot to get it.