Patch 3.2: Call of the Crusade - Page 17

Tyrian · 07/05/09, 1:24 PM

I was under the impression it also was going to reduce outgoing damage, not just incoming player damage. Tanks then have to consider stronger TPS losses and whether that is acceptable for various hardmodes.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Resilience change has the quote in question.

Duilliath · 07/05/09, 1:38 PM

I do believe you're misinterpreting Ghostcrawler in that topic.

It will do nothing to reduce outgoing damage. What he meant is that,
1) Resilience will reduce incoming damage more than it does now
2) by being a more vital stat, PvE gear will be replaced by PvP gear for Arenas, lowering outgoing damage some more.

"Changing resilience to affect Player Damage" means that it will not affect incoming Raid damage. Previously, since it reduced all crit damage and all dot damage, it affected PvE damage too (e.g. scalding water for Lurker). Though obviously the crit damage reduction did very little, as Tanks were supposed to be crit immune anyway.
Druids were using PvP gear on Thorim though, and it will likely affect their findings there.

Talgog · 07/05/09, 2:11 PM

Ah, found it.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Changing resilience to affect player damage is an attempt to make it unattractive to tanks and make it less useful for PvE in general. Note also that resilience becoming a more important stat in PvP means that damage (and to a lesser extent healing) will also likely go down, since wearing PvE gear in PvP will be even riskier.

It would have been nice if they actually added a line in the patch notes saying this, rather than spelling it out in a second page of a forum thread that's full of PvP ranting - in the Damage Dealing forum of all places.

Soul · 07/05/09, 2:39 PM

From that quote, GC also implies that the reduction in burst healing from HL spamming, Penance and Lifebloom is a result of PvP considerations arising from the resilience change:

We want to lower damage so that players don't die quite so quickly and have a chance to do something to respond. This should help lower the "burst damage" problem, along with some changes to specific classes. It does nothing for, or perhaps exacerbates, the "burst healing" problem. To attempt to counter this, we lowered the healing done by Penance and Lifebloom and hit some of the mana sustainability of Holy paladins (through Illumination) and druids (through Innervate and Improved Barkskin). Shamans were not heavily respresented in Arenas so we didn't think their healing output needed to be nerfed. It's possible healing may still be too good and that is something we'll need to keep a close eye on.

Once again, it seems that PvP considerations make for changes that heavily influence PvE. I don't really play the healer game, so I'm not sure if shaman really needed a relative buff on the healing totem pole in PvE (or whether these changes will even affect the position of shaman versus paladins or druids in terms of healing efficacy) or the consequences a Penance nerf would have on Disc representation in raids, but the trend of PvP driving changes that affect PvE is getting a bit tiresome.

Calixtus · 07/05/09, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Soul

Once again, it seems that PvP considerations make for changes that heavily influence PvE. I don't really play the healer game, so I'm not sure if shaman really needed a relative buff on the healing totem pole in PvE (or whether these changes will even affect the position of shaman versus paladins or druids in terms of healing efficacy) or the consequences a Penance nerf would have on Disc representation in raids, but the trend of PvP driving changes that affect PvE is getting a bit tiresome.

Come WotlK, they homogenized healers, leading to an across the board increase in healer output, reducing the effectiveness of CC and certain debuffs. That homogenization was drived forward almost entirely for PvE reasons; 10-man (and 5-man) viability to an equal degree for all healers. To counter the nigh-invulnerability-when-not-OOM now arising in PvP, they attempted to raise burst. This, more or less, sucked because of how it altered the pace of battle, and despite several nerfs is still pretty, hrm, poor. The kind of burst we're seeing just makes it too easy to ignore many aspects of a fight to only focus on your own rotation, much like patchwerk. As a general fix to this burst problem, they're now changing resilience to reduce damage across the board (also hopefully taking a massive stab at using PvE gear in PvP). This makes the original problem that the burst-changes was supposed to fix resurface, hence the changes to burst healing.

I'm not saying I think the original healer homogenization was a bad idea - I think it's worked well - but if there's any trend to be spotted, it's hardly that PvE is suffering under PvP motivated changes. If anything, the resilience change is another crack in the wall of their resolve to maintain the same ruleset in PvP and PvE.

Prinsesa · 07/06/09, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

Though obviously the crit damage reduction did very little, as Tanks were supposed to be crit immune anyway.
Druids were using PvP gear on Thorim though, and it will likely affect their findings there.

The primary use of resilience for a tank is the crit CHANCE reduction letting a tank get away with less than 540 defense, particularly since the PvP shoulder enchant (STA / resil) is the only one that adds effective health (the Hodir enchant is avoidance).

In this regard, resilience loses no potency. If a tank is using resilience to partially get to the 5.6% crit chance reduction minimum, the only change he'll see going from 3.1 to 3.2 is taking slightly more DOT damage (wherever applicable).

Duilliath · 07/06/09, 5:31 AM

Realised that later - since you're aiming to be crit immune after Unbalancing Strike, the rest won't make a lick o' difference.

Masnie · 07/06/09, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

I do believe you're misinterpreting Ghostcrawler in that topic.

It will do nothing to reduce outgoing damage. What he meant is that,
1) Resilience will reduce incoming damage more than it does now
2) by being a more vital stat, PvE gear will be replaced by PvP gear for Arenas, lowering outgoing damage some more.

"Changing resilience to affect Player Damage" means that it will not affect incoming Raid damage. Previously, since it reduced all crit damage and all dot damage, it affected PvE damage too (e.g. scalding water for Lurker). Though obviously the crit damage reduction did very little, as Tanks were supposed to be crit immune anyway.
Druids were using PvP gear on Thorim though, and it will likely affect their findings there.

In light of the patch notes i think you are mistaken:

Resilience: No longer reduces the amount of damage done by damage over time spells, but instead reduces the amount of all damage done by players by the same proportion. The other effects of resilience (reducing critical chance, critical damage and mana drain effects) have not changed.

While the wording is not the best this does imply that outgoing damage will be reduced by your resilience-%, which is the only way this change would "make it less useful for PvE in general" and "lower the "burst damage" problem".

• aya · 07/06/09, 6:00 AM

Considering the wording in the sentence before that one ("No longer reduces the amount of damage done by damage over time spells, but instead reduces the amount of all damage done by players by the same proportion."), I think it's safe to say that Ghostcrawler's meaning that all incoming damage done by players is reduced due to resilience.

Like this:

"No longer reduces the amount of damage done [to your character] by damage over time spells, but instead reduces the amount of all damage done [to your character] by players by the same proportion. "

Emeraude · 07/06/09, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Masnie

In light of the patch notes i think you are mistaken:

While the wording is not the best this does imply that outgoing damage will be reduced by your resilience-%, which is the only way this change would "make it less useful for PvE in general" and "lower the "burst damage" problem".

Err, you highlighted one portion of the sentence and ignored the other part.

Resilience: It no longer does this, but instead it now does this. IE Resilience no longer only reduces dot damage, it now reduces all player damage. The reason GC referred to it as a buff to Warlocks/Shadow Priests is because before Warlock/S. Priest Dot damage was say, doing 90% damage to somebody in full resilience gear and everyone else was doing 100% to that person, now everyone is doing 90%, so in that round-about way, dots were buffed.

Resilience was useful to tanks in PvE because on a fight like Kil'Jaeden for instance you could have a Warrior in full PvP gear tank him for less damage(His pew pew lazer was a dot), and they could also use it to get to their crit cap easier, a tactic many bear tanks used. They made it so that it only effects PLAYER damage, so for both purposes it makes it"alot less useful in PvE." Having a flat damage reduction on people that use resilience gear and can't find anything else would do far worse then make it "Less useful."

Furthermore wearing resilience to begin with already gimps most of your damage output, they don't need to tac on another damage penalty to people already wearing resilience, they need to make it more attractive, which is what they're doing with this flat damage reduction change.

chasehas · 07/06/09, 8:39 PM

I apologize if this derails the current direction of the thread, but has anyone had a chance to test the drake scaling in Oculus/EoE on the PTR? I'd assume it works similar to FL, but I'm very curious to know if they're lowering the current drake base HP. If not, that would seem to greatly trivialize both encounters. I attempted to test this myself over the weekend, but was unable to find a group for either.

Copernicus · 07/07/09, 7:17 PM

Achievements update (from Main Page - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information ) for patch 10072

Feats of Strength

* Realm First! Grand Crusader - Participated in the realm first conquest of the Trial of the Grand Crusader with 50 attempts remaining in 25-player mode. Title Reward: The Grand Crusader
* A Tribute to Immortality - In the Trial of the Grand Crusader, reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode. Alliance Reward: Crusader's Warhorse (Likely White)
* A Tribute to Immortality - In the Trial of the Grand Crusader, reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining and without allowing any raid member to die during any of the boss encounters in 25-player mode. Horde Reward: Crusader's Warhorse (Likely Black)

Dungeon and Raids

* Earth, Wind & Fire - Defeat Archavon the Stone Watcher, Emalon the Storm Watcher, and Koralon the Flame Watcher within 60 seconds of each other in 10/25-player mode.
* Three Sixty Pain Spike - Defeat Lord Jaraxxus while at least two Mistresses of Pain are alive in 10/25-player mode.
* The Traitor King - Use Pursuing Spikes to kill 25 Swarm Scarabs within 60 seconds in 10/25-player mode.
* A Tribute to Dedicated Insanity - In the Trial of the Grand Crusader, reach a Tribute Chest with 50 attempts remaining in 10-player mode, without any raid member ever having equipped, at any point during the boss encounters for that raid lockout, an item more powerful than those obtainable in the 10-player Trial of the Grand Crusader.

VikingIrishman · 07/07/09, 7:35 PM

So, the +10% EXP Shoulders and Chest piece bonuses are supposed to stack, right? Does anyone know whether they will stack additively or multiplicatively?

Mideci · 07/07/09, 7:39 PM

You get that's a 1% difference right? 120% or 121%...

Ja7us · 07/07/09, 7:41 PM

From the latest patch notes:

Originally Posted by Patch Notes

Savage Roar is now only usable in Cat Form.

Anyone have any idea if this is attempting to say that the ability can currently be used in other forms, or that on the PTR shifting out of Cat will remove the buff (Hopefully not the latter, yuck)?

Cranberry · 07/07/09, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

* Earth, Wind & Fire - Defeat Archavon the Stone Watcher, Emalon the Storm Watcher, and Koralon the Flame Watcher within 60 seconds of each other in 10/25-player mode.

And here I thought we'd never see anything hard in VOA. This looks like roughly on par with Freya+3 - presumably it'll be something like:

Pull Archavon
Burn him to 10% or so while heading to Koralon, with both tanks keeping enough threat to keep him on them.
Pull Koralon
Burn Koralon to 10% or so while heading to Emalon
Pull Emalon, blow lust and burn him

This seems to be the hard part though. You can't kill Archavon, who by this point isn't far from berserk, until you're sure you can finish off Emalon. Instagib possibilities are flying at this point - Emalon chain lightning + Koralon fire + Archavon stomp is easily enough to kill someone, particularly given that Archavon's stomp stuns. You'll either have to bring three tanks and make the dps requirement even tighter, or two tanks and have one tank tanking all three bosses + Emalon's adds while the other is Impaled by Archavon.

What sort of group makeup would one use, as well? Melee seem to have an edge because the boss is always moving, but on Emalon chain lightning could destroy them all.

Valerian · 07/07/09, 8:33 PM

Didn't Archavon used to despawn if you pulled him out of his room?

Flouyd · 07/07/09, 8:44 PM

I think 60s is a placeholder and we see more along the line of 10-15 minutes like in naxx

unitsinc · 07/07/09, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cranberry

And here I thought we'd never see anything hard in VOA. This looks like roughly on par with Freya+3 - presumably it'll be something like:

Pull Archavon
Burn him to 10% or so while heading to Koralon, with both tanks keeping enough threat to keep him on them.
Pull Koralon
Burn Koralon to 10% or so while heading to Emalon
Pull Emalon, blow lust and burn him

This seems to be the hard part though. You can't kill Archavon, who by this point isn't far from berserk, until you're sure you can finish off Emalon. Instagib possibilities are flying at this point - Emalon chain lightning + Koralon fire + Archavon stomp is easily enough to kill someone, particularly given that Archavon's stomp stuns. You'll either have to bring three tanks and make the dps requirement even tighter, or two tanks and have one tank tanking all three bosses + Emalon's adds while the other is Impaled by Archavon.

What sort of group makeup would one use, as well? Melee seem to have an edge because the boss is always moving, but on Emalon chain lightning could destroy them all.

I'm not quite sure of Koralon's mechanics but I pictured breaking the raid into 3 groups. A small one for Emalon, a bit bigger one for Emalon(need enough DPS to kill the add before it blows) and everyone else on Koralon.

Talgog · 07/07/09, 9:25 PM

That has to be a placeholder. Even with incredible gear, you would be looking at four tanks in 10 man single tanking both Emalon and Koralon with two for the Archavon incapacitate. Nevermind the enrage timer(s) from splitting your DPS on all three of them.

VikingIrishman · 07/07/09, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mideci

You get that's a 1% difference right? 120% or 121%...

Indeed I do. It's a negligible difference, but over the course of 80 levels, it actually does count for something. I'm more curious for my own personal knowledge than anything else.

Prinsesa · 07/07/09, 11:19 PM

For what it's worth, the rested XP bonus stacks multiplicatively with the shoulder XP bonus. Until we get someone to empirically test, it's fair bet to say the shoulder and chest will interact the same way.

Mideci · 07/08/09, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by VikingIrishman

Indeed I do. It's a negligible difference, but over the course of 80 levels, it actually does count for something. I'm more curious for my own personal knowledge than anything else.

Just to add a little color then. It's 26.1 million xp from 1 to 80. So a 1% difference would amount to ~260,000 xp over the span, or about 10-11 quests at the end (20k xp per quest plus ancillary killing of mobs to do them). So you're right; it counts for something. But that something is about an hour or two over the entire span of leveling.

klüger · 07/08/09, 3:44 AM

New ptr build up, there are also some difference in spells which can be found at mmo-champ.
Very interesting to see how the dodgenerf pans out

PvP
Lake Wintergrasp

* Wintergrasp factories can no longer be damaged or destroyed.

Dungeons and Raids
Dungeon and Raid ID Extensions

* In order to allow for parties and raids to progress through instances at their own pace, players can now extend a dungeon or raid ID on an individual basis.
* Existing or recently expired IDs can be extended via the Social tab under Raid by clicking on Raid Info.
* The ID of any instance to which a player is saved can be extended. Doing so will extend the lockout period by the same amount of time as the original lockout (i.e. extending an Ulduar raid ID will add 7 days, a Heroic: Halls of Lightning dungeon ID will add 24 hours, and a Zul'Gurub raid ID will add 3 days to the lockout time).
* An ID can be extended more than once.
* An extension can be reversed on an individual basis provided the player does not do anything in the instance during the extended lockout period that would save that player to the instance.

Items: General

* Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
* Dodge Rating: The amount of dodge rating required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply.
* Parry Rating: The amount of parry rating required per percentage of parry has been reduced by 8%. This is before diminishing returns. Combined with other changes, this makes dodge rating and parry rating equally potent before diminishing returns apply. Parry still diminishes more quickly than dodge.

Druid (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Enrage: This Bear Form ability now generates 20 rage initially, and 10 rage over the next 10 seconds. The armor penalty is unchanged.
* King of the Jungle: This talent now reduces the mana cost of Bear Form, Cat Form, and Dire Bear Form by 20/40/60%.
* Primal Tenacity: This talent no longer reduces the mana cost of Bear Form, Cat Form, and Dire Bear Form.

Hunter (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Pets

* Roar of Sacrifice: Redesigned. This ability can now be used on any friendly target to make that target immune to critical strikes, but the hunter pet takes 20% of all damage taken by that friendly target. Cooldown is now 1 minute, up from 30 seconds.

Mage (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Frost

* Empowered Frostbolt: Instead of increasing critical strike chance by 2/4%, this talent now reduces the cast time of Frostbolt by 0.1/0.2 seconds.
* Permafrost: In addition to its existing effects, this talent now also causes the mage's Chill effects to reduce healing received by the victim by 7/13/20%.

Paladin (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Protection

* Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Any damage that takes the paladin below 35% health is reduced. This reduction applies only to the portion that pushes the paladin below 35% health (example: a paladin at 50% health takes a 40% hit; the first 15% hits as normal while the next 25% is reduced). In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead heal the paladin for up to 10/20/30% of maximum health depending on the paladin's defense rating (example: a paladin with defense equal to only 5 times his or her level will receive no healing from the talent, while a paladin who is immune to critical strikes from boss creatures through defense will receive the maximum amount).
* Guarded by the Light: This talent will no longer cause Divine Plea's duration to be refreshed by using Judgement of Wisdom, Judgement of Justice, or Judgement of Light.

Retribution

* Art of War: Now only applies to melee critical hits, but will make your next Flash of Light or Exorcism instant. In addition, this talent now provides notification in the floating combat text when it activates.

Priest (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Psychic Horror: This spell no longer has an invisible missile, so there is no travel time before the spell takes effect.

Shadow

* Dispersion: Cooldown reduced to 2 minutes, down from 3 minutes.
* Improved Mind Blast: Redesigned. Now, in addition to reducing the cooldown of your Mind Blast spell by .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds, while in Shadowform your Mind Blast also has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to reduce all healing done to the target by 20% for 10 seconds.
* Vampiric Touch: The amount of damage done when this spell is dispelled has been doubled.

Shaman (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Chain Heal: Jump distance increased by 25% to 12.5 yards. In addition, the amount of healing now decreases by 40% as it jumps to each new target, instead of 50%.

Warlock (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Shadowflame: The angle of the cone effect on this ability was inadvertently very small, making it difficult to use. Its cone is now the same size as similar spells, such as Cone of Cold.

Warrior (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)

* Bloodrage: This ability now generates 20 rage initially, and 10 rage over the next 10 seconds. The health cost is unchanged.
* Execute: This ability now never costs more than a total of 30 rage. The tooltip for Sudden Death has been revised to remove reference to that maximum, since the ability now behaves that way even when untalented.
* Shield Block: Shield Slam no longer benefits from the increased block value granted by this ability. However, while Shield Block is active, Shield Slam generates 100% additional threat.

Professions
Engineering

* Added a new Mind Amplification Dish attachment for helmets, allowing engineers to control other humanoid targets. Some restrictions apply: does not work in Arenas, dish sometimes reverses targets, unable to stack with other stat-improving head enchantments and makes your helmet look... stylish? This attachment provides a passive bonus of 45 stamina.
* Gnomish Engineers and Goblin Engineers can now switch profession specializations for a fee.
* The Spynocular belt attachment has been changed to a Frag Belt. The Frag Belt periodically produces a Cobalt Frag Bomb that can be used from the belt every 6 minutes (never runs out!).

Items

* Mage Tier-7 2-Piece Bonus: Now grants 25% additional mana from mana gems, down from 40%

Glyphs
Paladin

* Glyph of Righteous Defense: Now also increases the chance for Hand of Reckoning to hit.

Shaman

* Glyph of Healing Wave: The amount of healing the shaman receives is now based on the entire healing amount, including over-healing.

Cranberry · 07/08/09, 4:19 AM

So parry gear is still bad, it's just...slightly...less bad? I have to say I don't really see where they're going with this - in particular, after they nerf DKs, they throw a decent buff to them (8% more parry per rating on a raid-buffed DK tank is easily a effective 30-40 rating gain).