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04/01/06, 8:01 PM
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#16
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Don Flamenco
Undead Rogue
Al'Akir (EU)
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Cool thread. I for one am always interested to see how other guilds handle their administration of stuff most players never even consider. I can't actually remember what it felt like to just be a player.
While we are a small guild (~60 accounts), massive attrition has meant that we've had to start growing larger than we originally intended. You start off aiming for that ideal of a tightly knit, small crew of players, and reality catches up with you and tells them to get a job/girlfriend/dose of natural light. But I digress. On our busiest nights we're sometimes overcrowded, and we use a system of multiple criteria for handling attendance :
1) Class
2) Member / Recruit
3) Our discretion
The first is always the most important. You can be the 2nd coming of Sun Tzu, but if you're the 9th mage, and we only have 1 tank, you're getting swapped out. Class balance for certain encounters we've found, just makes life that little bit smoother. Accordingly we always look at that first, and see if there are any classes that are overweight at the expense of another.
Members always have priority over our recruits. The core of our guild, of about 25 odd people, have been playing together for over a year, and have put in the time and dedication that in my mind, warrants them being able to expect a place in the raid even if they get home late from work. Every now and then it proves a bitter pill for the new guys, but the guys that suck it up and sit out generally end up becoming members anyway.
That last one was really for us to simply say : 'sometimes, we don't know.' There's 101 different situations that can arise, and as any of you that lead raids will know, it can be a serious handfull sometimes. Instead of us trying to provide for every eventuality, we simply allowed ourselves some room to maneuver when the situation calls for it.
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04/01/06, 10:42 PM
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#17
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Piston Honda
Undead Priest
Al'Akir (EU)
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We used to do invites based on whoever was available around raid time, with officer discretion used to decide who has to sit out. Obviously this turned problematic in the long run, since no one would know who is going to the raid before the actual raid time, and being a fairly large guild where we had both active and less active players, problems arose as there were no clear rules on what basis players were actually invited to raids.
So, we decided to remove the less active players from the equation and limit our raiding team to around 60 active players. Harsh perhaps, but in hindsight the only right decision we could've made without recruiting enough people to run 2 raids at the same time, which would've just brought a different kind of headache altogether.
We have a static amount of raid spots for each class for every raid, the total amount of players in each class usually being 2-3 more than the raid spots. We then have class forums set up for each class where only the players of that class + the class officer have access. Class officers put up the upcoming week's raid schedule 3 days prior to the next raid week. Players then post their availability, and the day before the new raid week class officers make a list of participants from their class for each raid on the upcoming week.
Class officers try to maintain a fair rotation, so that in the long run all players get to do about the same amount of raids. Of course, the regulars who are always around tend to end up with more raids done than those with more limited availability. Also we tend to use as static a line up as possible for learning encounters, with the best players usually getting priority(assuming the encounter is not quite trivial to learn).
The system has worked very well for us, players know in time the raids they are going to participate on and the whole rotation system is more conversational than just a cold sign up list, as the class officers are always 'close', and players can sort any problems with them. There isn't any kind of competition for raid spots, as players know that it's up to the class officers to make sure that the rotation remains fair.
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04/02/06, 5:47 PM
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#18
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Von Kaiser
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People should have to pay guild dues for raid spots.
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04/02/06, 6:36 PM
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#19
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Sledgehammer Emeritus
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But then Vent would be nothing but a bunch of people speaking Chinese.
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Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
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04/02/06, 7:08 PM
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#20
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King Hippo
Selggog
Dwarf Shaman
No WoW Account (EU)
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I'm not in a raid guild. In fact our raid group has no official leader. We used to do FCFS but it was rubbish. Now for each instance we each class has a certain number of slots available. This is partly based on the challenges we'll encounter in an instance and partly on how many of a class we've historically had in the group. Each class handles rotation amongst themselves. Every class has their own methods depending on what they feel is best for them. Only issues that ever occur come when 1 class cannot fill it's slots at which point class leaders take on someone of a suitable class to not upset the balance too much. If it happens too often we recruit or change class structure for instance. I feel it works because there generally people within classes get on better with each other and it prevents much interclass conflict.
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Not actually a member of Refusion on Burning Blade.
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04/03/06, 10:48 AM
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#21
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Von Kaiser
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GCR/TnT has class leaders, and they handle the rosters for each week's raids. We think it's easier for one person to worry about the attendence issues of 7-10 people rather than 70-100. Has worked pretty well so far, though we still get the occasional roster drama (he gets to raid too much, i dont get to raid, why can't I go to bwl, blah blah blah.)
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04/03/06, 11:07 AM
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#22
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Von Kaiser
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We're actually experiencing the pitfalls of having a PG system right now. When we first split from our raid alliance, we decided that we would take our core members and form a permagroup to tackle MC. By and large this was a big success and we downed Rag about a month and a half after splitting. However, in that span, our guild nearly doubled in size and we formed a second permagroup to compensate.
Now as we're attempting new content, we're finding that our 'Team A' is having manpower issues as people hit spring break / finals /whatever. This problem is worsened by the fact that a majority of our guild can only really raid on the weekends.
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04/03/06, 11:34 AM
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#23
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Glass Joe
Murloc Warrior
ShadowMoon
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Originally Posted by Blozzom,April 3rd, 2006 @ 10:33AM
<shrug> easy: just don't have enough members to fill a whole raid! :rolleyes:
works for us :P
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This is what we have been doing! :P
Our first ever 40 man raid was last night for Razorgore, before that our highest ever was 39 for Ragnaros.
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04/03/06, 11:38 AM
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#24
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Sledgehammer Emeritus
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Originally Posted by Goggles,April 2nd, 2006 @ 5:08PM
Now for each instance we each class has a certain number of slots available.
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This is essentially what we do once we have an instance on semi-farm status. If 50 people sign up for a raid, the 10 who sit out are typically those pre-chosen by their respective classes, and who also don't need items or are behind in JP. Of course they still get credit for going, hanging around in a separate chat channel in case they're called upon to switch in for one reason or another.
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Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
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04/03/06, 2:49 PM
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#25
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Jeht,April 3rd, 2006 @ 9:48AM
GCR/TnT has class leaders, and they handle the rosters for each week's raids. We think it's easier for one person to worry about the attendence issues of 7-10 people rather than 70-100. Has worked pretty well so far, though we still get the occasional roster drama (he gets to raid too much, i dont get to raid, why can't I go to bwl, blah blah blah.)
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Though lately, we've run into issues regarding attendance in MC because of DKP caps (that's our best guess). As one of the rogue class leaders, our class certainly has no shortage, and I know several of the other classes don't (shaman, warriors). However we've run short on druids and warlocks (hence why I brought my 60 warlock alt out of the mothballs) frequently, and occasionally priests too.
It seems most of our raid roster in MC lately is alts, and we have people switch back to mains to help secure a solid balance in the raid.
I found the 2nd post by Gurg very informative as that is entirely the same situation we've run into, only we haven't been able to field 2 groups for MC yet. We went through a stage where we had a semi-permagroup where we set up veterans, but to prevent the inevitable sniping of team B's players, we had almost fully split within the guild. It turned out that we needed to recruit a lot more people to make a full second team, so we ended up merging back into one group.
Strangely enough, when there were once 60+ people wanting in the 40 slots, now we have trouble filling out the MC raid because it's all alts and none of the mains want to come if they have no dkp/items in sight due to caps.
For new instances, it's pretty much controlled by the class leaders. The individual classes know who are the vets and who have the gear. Each class handles invites differently based on needs. For instance, rogues generally have 5-6 max vet rogues signing up for BWL, so it's almost a no-brainer as we often take 6. Warlocks on the other hand have < 5 sign up for most raids, and we take what we can get on raid day. I know some other classes have pretty strict rotations and such to make sure people get their raid time, and we usually sub people in/out for each boss based on DKP/Item need/wants.
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04/03/06, 5:13 PM
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#26
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Founder of the Chalonverse
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
No WoW Account
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The way it basically works for my guild...
First of all, we give DKP and attendance credit to people who are on standby. Standby meaning they were on-time at the raid zone, and if they are called into the raid they can be back to the zone within 10-15 minutes.
Then, for learning runs (currently AQ), the raid leader gets to pick more or less whoever they want to at raid start time. Though, if there are two people vying for a spot that are roughly on the same skill/gear level, we look at their 90-day attendance level to break ties. Sometimes there are grumblings from lower attendance/lesser geared people if they are on standby consistently, but it's not terribly bad for them because they still get DKP and attendance credit. And standby is extremely useful to have, because especially on longer raid days, as the raid progresses people will have to go for whatever reason, and it's nice to be able to field a full raid most of the time.
For farming runs (BWL, MC, and Onyxia), it is based almost solely on attendance and who needs gear. So veterans who have everything they possibly want from the zone are happy to sit out so the lower attendance/experience people can get in and gear up.
There is one sort of peculiarity that crops up with this, though...basically at a certain point in farming the veterans want to be on standby and not in the raid, so there is a little bit of complaining in that regard...in which case I try to rotate who gets standby :P.
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04/03/06, 5:15 PM
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#27
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Mike Tyson
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Originally Posted by chalon,April 3rd, 2006 @ 4:13PM
There is one sort of peculiarity that crops up with this, though...basically at a certain point in farming the veterans want to be on standby and not in the raid, so there is a little bit of complaining in that regard...in which case I try to rotate who gets standby :P.
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Yes, this phenomenon is not unique to your guild. :P
I have to laugh when I say "Hmm we have 8 of <class X>, can I get 2 to sit out so we can fit in more healers?" and four people immediately leave the raid group.
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04/03/06, 6:37 PM
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#28
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Piston Honda
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I get that same phenomenon, except the people who drop are usually healers - not very helpful!
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04/03/06, 9:45 PM
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#29
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Super Macho Man
<>
Orc Shaman
No WoW Account
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We do two systems; one for learning, one for farm. Both have semi-weekly signups, because we don't have defined offdays.
Learning raids, priority is basically at the discretion of the raid leader, although people who don't signup aren't likely to get invited, either. MTs and DKP officer get an autoinvite.
Farming raids, no one gets an autoinvite, and it's strictly based on signup priority (via classes, obviously - first 5 mages, first 5 rogues, etc., or whatever's needed class-wise for that raid.)
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Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
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04/04/06, 4:13 PM
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#30
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Von Kaiser
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Our guild has reached the point where we frequently have 10-15 people sitting out on most raid nights. We base invites on attendance / class composition. Someone who has achieved Vet. status (>= 70% attendance) is guaranteed a raid spot regardless of class composition. We do not have enough vets to offset the class composition we would need to win any encounters we're currently farming so that works out well and gives people something to aim for.
The real issue for us is that with so many having to sit out nightly our newest dilemma is whether to recruit more and create a second raid force or just have people leave because they don't get to raid as much as they want. We've opted based on observations and discussions of/with other large guilds to try to flesh out a second raid group as the advantages, as many EJ members have posted in the past, in the end outweigh the disadvantages.
* Less people excluded from raids who really want to raid
* Allows the more casual members to have less of an impact when they show / don't show
* Less of a "you must show up" feeling so people can actually take nights off / cut back on the burnout factor
* More people to attempt world spawns on at any given time
* Two well geared raid groups so people leaving / taking nights off does not greatly hinder progression
* Eventually will provide the ability to split people between raids giving them a better shot at getting the loot they need
Those are just the primary benefits although I see a lot more. I can see from some posts here what kind of experiences different people have had attempting this. If you had to go back and do it again what are some things that you would do differently given the opportunity?
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