Warriors, Talents and Tactical Mastery. - Page 2

♦ Praetorian · 04/04/06, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 10:15AM

Why is improved thunderclap still a talent? Why do we still have to take improved rend to get to impale or deep wounds? Why is polearm spec on a different level of the talent tree? Why are slam, improved slam, and blood craze absolutely terrible? Why doesn't booming voice apply to piercing howl? Unbridled wrath nerfs? What's the point of improved disarm, and why is 90% of the utility of protection in the first 20 points? Notice all these things and I haven't even touched the point of the topic which was that you have to invest 10 points in a particular talent tree not to be completely gimped in every aspect of the game.

Now like I said, warriors aren't a terrible class that no one should play, but if you read the warrior forums, when the topic of TM as a skill was broached recently basically, the devs said, fuck you we feel it makes playing a warrior skillful, or some nonsense like that. And now mages might get not only improved AE but evo as a skill. Must be nice, I'd like tact mast + piercing howl as skills.

These are all valid points. Obviously not every talent is equally viable, nor is the warrior class without its illogical flaws. But neither are paladins. Or warlocks. Or hunters. Etc. Warriors got the first class revamp, and it was a good one that helped the class a lot. The price you pay for being tweaked first is that it may be some time until the class receives attention again. You can't argue that, say, shamans, don't need a talent revamp before warriors get a second look.

Kytrarewn · 04/04/06, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Krag,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:21AM

I was more intrigued by IAE and Evocation being mentioned as "must have" and in consideration of being changed to non-talent skills. Sure, warriors can probably do fine without TM, but mages can sure a heck live without these skills also :)

I'm enjoying my mage alt, but I have to say that without IAE... Arcane Explosion is completely and utterly useless. That's the main thing that has persuaded me to pursue a 21/30/0 spec instead of the 0/30/21 that I initially wanted to play around with.

Making Evocation and IAE available to all mages would be a huge help towards helping Mage diversity.

Krag · 04/04/06, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Kytrarewn,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:24AM

I'm enjoying my mage alt, but I have to say that without IAE... Arcane Explosion is completely and utterly useless. That's the main thing that has persuaded me to pursue a 21/30/0 spec instead of the 0/30/21 that I initially wanted to play around with.

Making Evocation and IAE available to all mages would be a huge help towards helping Mage diversity.

I don't think anyone here would argue that those two changes wouldn't help mages conjure up new and different talent specs. ;)

subscience · 04/04/06, 10:33 AM

Slightly OT, but does anyone really hate the way Blizzard is "revamping" classes one-by-one? It just seems like a cheap way to keep users subscribed ("I can't quit yet! They're revamping my class in the next patch!"). I'm not saying that revamping and improving a class is an easy task to accomplish, but I really don't like how Blizzard singles out a class each patch rather than take a more aggregate approach. /shrug

XI- · 04/04/06, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:15AM

Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 8:30AM

How about burst damage, a huge complain against warriors. (http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?498973) I have pretty good gear, and I do a lot of damage. Put me up against a mage with similar gear, and I might be able to take off 1/2 their life once a week, in 40 or 50 hrs of PvP combined (discounting chain sword procs). On the other hand any decently geared mage with AP, can easily wipe off half my life bar, and leave me with a dot that ticks for 1/10th of my life, easily, and predictably, once every 3minutes, which isn't very long in PvP.

Now add a couple of healers into the mix. So the the trinket+AP burst gets healed away, and see what happens.

Warriors are insanely hard to balance for PvP because of the gulf between group and solo dynamics. Warriors are probably a bit below mid-tier solo, but incredible in group PvP with some backup. I'm not sure what's wrong with that, personally. Rogues, for example, are very much the opposite.

Sure, the problem some of the other classes were balanced with 1v1 in mind. Think about death coil? In a group scenario you'd either the warlock would be under attack by multiple people, in which case death coil is basically useless, or 1 person who could be CC'd by another member of their group. Death coil was a pure 1v1 balance change.

These are all valid points. Obviously not every talent is equally viable, nor is the warrior class without its illogical flaws. But neither are paladins. Or warlocks. Or hunters. Etc. Warriors got the first class revamp, and it was a good one that helped the class a lot. The price you pay for being tweaked first is that it may be some time until the class receives attention again. You can't argue that, say, shamans, don't need a talent revamp before warriors get a second look.

No the shaman trees are far worse than the warrior tree's, in terms of useless talents, but, I don't think it takes a whole patch to make TM a skill, or numerous other little changes. How about fixing charge/intercept while snared? Why was intimidating shout nerfed to be "in line" with other fears? If it's supposed to be in line why does it cost 25% of your available "mana" pool, and break instantly on damage, distinctly different from any other fear in the game.

XI- · 04/04/06, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by subscience,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:33AM

Slightly OT, but does anyone really hate the way Blizzard is "revamping" classes one-by-one? It just seems like a cheap way to keep users subscribed ("I can't quit yet! They're revamping my class in the next patch!"). I'm not saying that revamping and improving a class is an easy task to accomplish, but I really don't like how Blizzard singles out a class each patch rather than take a more aggregate approach. /shrug

Well, I think their options are either 1 at a time, or everyone would have to wait 2 years. Personally I'd rather wait 2 years, than have to sit through the ebb and flow of the latest uber class, but I'm sure there's plenty of people who feel the opposite way.

Kytrarewn · 04/04/06, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by subscience,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:33AM

Slightly OT, but does anyone really hate the way Blizzard is "revamping" classes one-by-one? It just seems like a cheap way to keep users subscribed ("I can't quit yet! They're revamping my class in the next patch!"). I'm not saying that revamping and improving a class is an easy task to accomplish, but I really don't like how Blizzard singles out a class each patch rather than take a more aggregate approach. /shrug

I somewhat agree with that, as well as the fact that they're making such sweeping changes to classes in one fell swoop, without considering what they're going to do to other classes to balance that out. The hunter rebalance is a key example of that- Since the talent revamp hunters have taking slight-medium nerfs every patch.

Granted, some classes' talent trees are messed up beyond any small changes, and a full "respec granted, trees completely gone" change is the only way to go about fixing things, but, in many cases, small little number tweaks is all that would be required.

♦ Praetorian · 04/04/06, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 10:33AM

Why was intimidating shout nerfed to be "in line" with other fears? If it's supposed to be in line why does it cost 25% of your available "mana" pool, and break instantly on damage, distinctly different from any other fear in the game.

25 range is hardly analogous to "25% of a mana bar," come on.

And it was nerfed for raid content, both PvE and PvP. One warrior fearing 30 mobs in a PvE zerg event is excessive, as is one warrior charging and fearing in the middle of a 20-man front in AV. I guess you can argue that warriors should be able to do that, but then why not warlocks and priests too?

--

As for the way Blizzard does class revamps, if they are doing it with some vision of balance as their ultimate aim, it's easier by far to only change one point at a time. Sit back, watch for 2-3 months, then nerf the strongest class a bit or buff the weakest. Wait another 2-3 months, and repeat. You could change them all at once, but I think that's just too many variable to properly account for in striving for some semblance of balance.

XI- · 04/04/06, 10:43 AM

25 range is hardly analogous to "25% of a mana bar," come on.

And it was nerfed for raid content, both PvE and PvP. One warrior fearing 30 mobs in a PvE zerg event is excessive, as is one warrior charging and fearing in the middle of a 20-man front in AV. I guess you can argue that warriors should be able to do that, but then why not warlocks and priests too?

That's fine, and but you also have to look at the fact that it breaks instantly on damage. If you were allowed to apply small bits of damage to someone, maybe 500 or so, so my deep wounds didn't instantly break it, it might be alright. Or if they lowered the rage cost, or the cooldown.

diospadre · 04/04/06, 10:44 AM

I do agree with Xi in that the Int. Shout nerf was horrible and no amount of data or reasoning will make me change my mind.

Wubwub · 04/04/06, 10:46 AM

Few people are happy with their class in it's entirety. This is no surprise. Having those 5 points to spend elsewhere isn't going to help that much anyhow.

Kaubel · 04/04/06, 10:52 AM

For two years now, I've been pretty content playing a druid. That's probably because I'm not a raging, demanding, neck-bearded nerd who expects his video game character to be more powerful than all the others and lives to complain daily about it when it's not.

Raylen · 04/04/06, 10:53 AM

Let's compound on Intimidating Shout. Does it break on damage? Sometimes. Is it limited to only a set number of targets? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause your current target to be paralyzed for eight seconds? Yes.

Physic Scream: Chance to break on damage? Yes. Limited to only a set number? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause the target to be paralyzed? No but I so wish it did.

So no, it's not distinctly different at all. Except for the cowering in fear part and the cooldown. Also, you have two extra yards on our Physic Scream. Both of ours also are instants compared to the two second cast on Howl of Terror. But they also have 7 extra feared seconds. AND the fear also has a chance to break on damage.

XI- · 04/04/06, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by ex-Wubwub,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:46AM

Few people are happy with their class in it's entirety. This is no surprise. Having those 5 points to spend elsewhere isn't going to help that much anyhow.

It's not just 5 points, or 6 points if you include evocation. Mages are saving 16 points, if they don't spec arcane. The 10 previous points, + the 6. Or in the warrior's case 10 points. Now I've never looked at what you would spec as a mage, nor could a tell you, especially if they add synergy between fire and frost, but as a warrior I'll tell you the ability to go fury/prot with TM would be the ultimate PvE/PvP synergy.

Wubwub · 04/04/06, 10:54 AM

To be honest, I love my shaman. I am quite happy with how he is, but to claim I am entirely satisfied would be a lie. Our talents are pretty plain, but in some ways I appreciate that. Every time I look at other classes talent tress, especially ones I haven't played at 60, I get a little confused. Every class except Shamans and warriors, really. Druids are pretty simple too, I suppose, but I just go 46 resto. :P

I meant TM, Xi.