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Old 04/04/06, 10:55 AM   #31
 Hamlet
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They do give minor tweaks to each class every patch. But changes to talent trees aren't something you can parcel up over many patches, giving each class a bit of theirs each time. Class-by-class is the only logical way to do it.

Besides, you want them to be making balance changes in really small increments. Changing one variable at a time, in general, is quite doable. Rvamping at once, in a system as complicated as this, would be as big a project as balancing the game was in the first place. It's not something you can do in a monthly patch.

Remember D2? They tried to adjust balance really aggressively, and all they wound up with was one annoying broken build each time around.


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Old 04/04/06, 10:57 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Raylen,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:53AM
Let's compound on Intimidating Shout. Does it break on damage? Sometimes. Is it limited to only a set number of targets? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause your current target to be paralyzed for eight seconds? Yes.

Physic Scream: Chance to break on damage? Yes. Limited to only a set number? Yes. Does it last eight seconds? Yes. Does it cause the target to be paralyzed? No but I so wish it did.

So no, it's not distinctly different at all. Except for the cowering in fear part and the cooldown. Also, you have two extra yards on our Physic Scream. Both of ours also are instants compared to the two second cast on Howl of Terror. But they also have 7 extra feared seconds. AND the fear also has a chance to break on damage.
The odds of intim shout not breaking on damage, are roughly equal to that of you soloing c'thun, at least in my personal experience. Psychic scream does not break very often. I don't consider the paralyze, a huge bonus, I suppose its nice for 1v1 in PvE so your target doesn't run into mobs. But you omitted a very important part. Cooldown. Psychic scream is on a 30 second cooldown. Intimidating shout's cooldown is 6 times as long.

Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
in before JOHN FUCKING MADDEN

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Old 04/04/06, 10:58 AM   #33
Wubwub
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Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 4th, 2006 @ 8:55AM
Remember D2? They tried to adjust balance really aggressively, and all they wound up with was one annoying broken build each time around.
The perils of balance. The issue with gear dependant classes scaling better than ability dependant classes has always been an issue in every game. Unfortunately, attempting to give ability classes a way to be on par with gear classes tends to create it's own issue.

If you scale up, shit breaks. If you scale down, people whine. Though they whine even if you scale up.

Whine people, whine.

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Old 04/04/06, 10:58 AM   #34
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No, I noted the cooldown. Do you bother reading, Xi?

And yes, Physic Scream breaks far too often. I've seen many SW:P ticks instantly break the fear. And no, they did not use their trinkets.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:01 AM   #35
♦ Praetorian
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Psychic Scream is a defensive tool. Priests are cloth casters and are squishy. If a priest has 4 people beating on him, he's dead in two seconds unless he pops that fear. If it has a long cooldown, then his death is inevitable.

If a warrior has 4 people beating on him, he's probably pretty happy (assuming it's group PvP and not a 4v1).

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Old 04/04/06, 11:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by ex-Wubwub,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:54AM
To be honest, I love my shaman. I am quite happy with how he is, but to claim I am entirely satisfied would be a lie. Our talents are pretty plain, but in some ways I appreciate that. Every time I look at other classes talent tress, especially ones I haven't played at 60, I get a little confused. Every class except Shamans and warriors, really. Druids are pretty simple too, I suppose, but I just go 46 resto. :P

I meant TM, Xi.
But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring? With the new rank of BoW hopefully the spring talents will be changed so the bought skill is the same as it is with talents now, eventide is de-linked from mana tide. And most of the totem talents are terrible.

Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
in before JOHN FUCKING MADDEN

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Old 04/04/06, 11:02 AM   #37
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 11:01AM
But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring?
Haha.

In EJ a "resto shaman" is one with 30 points who has Purification. Mana Tide is a piece of shit and no one has it.

Edit: Obviously, yes, if it were a 21pt talent I'd get it gladly. And yes, it should be delinked from those awful talents. But no one feels "forced" to put points there, because we simply choose not to do it.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:03 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:01AM
But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring? With the new rank of BoW hopefully the spring talents will be changed so the bought skill is the same as it is with talents now, eventide is de-linked from mana tide. And most of the totem talents are terrible.
First off, I am not forced. I have never had mana tide, except on the PTR. I don't even want to.

Secondly, I have a little more raiding experience than most, and I'm quite happy to spec into manatide lately. I hope 1.12 brings good things. : /

In fact, it would be hard to express that to a shaman, since there is nothing I feel forced into speccing.. Everything that is considered a talent obligation is welcomed.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:04 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Praetorian,April 4th, 2006 @ 10:01AM
Psychic Scream is a defensive tool. Priests are cloth casters and are squishy. If a priest has 4 people beating on him, he's dead in two seconds unless he pops that fear. If it has a long cooldown, then his death is inevitable.

If a warrior has 4 people beating on him, he's probably pretty happy (assuming it's group PvP and not a 4v1).
Sure, assuming I always use my fear when I'm being attacked, how about when I'm trying to save someone else, and it's completely wasted because 10 seconds ago I happened to crit them with a whirlwind. I don't think priest fear should be nerfed, I do think warlock fear needs to be toned down slightly in terms of the damage you can take before it breaks, or it needs to be standardized instead of sometimes taking very little, and sometimes taking over 6k.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:08 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Praetorian,April 4th, 2006 @ 10:02AM
Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 11:01AM
But as a resto shaman wouldn't you appreciate not feeling forced to sink 10 points in eventide, and mana spring?
Haha.

In EJ a "resto shaman" is one with 30 points who has Purification. Mana Tide is a piece of shit and no one has it.

Edit: Obviously, yes, if it were a 21pt talent I'd get it gladly. And yes, it should be delinked from those awful talents. But no one feels "forced" to put points there, because we simply choose not to do it.
I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?

Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
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Old 04/04/06, 11:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 9:08AM
I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?
You are talking to a shaman.

We have 4 31 point talents.

You are a god damned retard if you have any of them.

Edit for clarification: Yes. No. Maybe. It depends, really.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:12 AM   #42
♦ Praetorian
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Originally Posted by XI-,April 4th, 2006 @ 11:08AM
I think that's the point though. If any class goes say, 30 points in a tree, and doesn't take the 31 point talent, isn't something wrong with tree design or talents in some fashion?
Yes. I have often said that shamans do not have trees. We have lines. It just depends which ones you want to go down. There are maybe five viable shaman specs, and they all involve the same talents, pretty much. I'm not going to suggest for a second that shaman talents aren't a joke. Just responding to the notion that we're forced to use mana tide. :P

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Old 04/04/06, 11:14 AM   #43
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30/0/21
0/30/21
0/0/30

3 specs.

I almost forgot 20/31/0 !

Well there is also the 0/5+/31+ build.

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Old 04/04/06, 11:15 AM   #44
 Hamlet
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I'm generally quite happy as a Mage. In all honesty, all I really hope for in the talent review is that they shuffle some stuff around. Anything, really. I just want my character-building decisions to be fresh. Those Priests looked like they were having a lot of fun right after the new trees were announced. Everyone secretly hopes that one day they'll long and things that were mundane will suddenly be novel again, and class changes are a rare opportunity for that. Hopefully the Priest changes indicate that Blizz is getting a bit more comfortable with making meaningful changes, but the "mages are fine" tone they've always had has made me nervous that they won't do very much interesting.

My only complaint about Mages has nothing to do with power level, just with a lack of diversity in good builds. A lot of people try to use interesting builds--I've been trying hard to come up with a tri-spec build for raids--but ultimately you face the decision that if you stray from a few particular choices, you're choosing novelty over pure utility. It shouldn't have to be that way.

Evocation is great example of something that should be made a class skill (more so than IAE). No build without Evo is going to be more useful in raids than any build with Evo. It changes the whole dynamic of the class by removing mana as a limiting factor in a huge number of situations. Imagine if, say, Feign Death were a talent. IAE you can give up and still take your build seriously (though it's a stretch). If you go 40/11 Frost, your decked-out Blizzard is often making itself rather useful while the other mages are casting IAE. Give up Evo, however, and while everyone else is going through their second mana bar, you're sitting there wanding, talking about how you could be using both Fire and Frost spells effectively.

Tactical Mastery seems more like IAE. If you don't spec it, there are ways to patch over that utility in practical situations. It lets you do a few things you couldn't do before, but doensn't fundamentally affect the scope of the class.


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Old 04/04/06, 11:18 AM   #45
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With any luck there will be a viable tri-spec for mages in 1.11. Still, you talk about lack of diversity again. Talking about lack of diversity around a shaman is like a security comparing his job to a police officer.

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