[/quote]Although Sword does lose out a lot on the full bar executes.[/quote]
I've always wondered why this is and thought perhaps it was just bugged. Do swords just not crit on execute? I rarely do over 1300 with almost a full bar of rage with the Quel Serrar.
Originally Posted by sekdar,April 10th, 2006 @ 7:56AM
In pure statistical theory, yep.
In WOW, with it's retarded number generator rolls, my experience says no :)
Well you might see more big numbers with the axe spec (5% more in fact, math fans) but that's just psychology fucking with you. The random number generator is just that, random.
More proof, if proof were needed, that perception = reality.
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
If you're saying that misses/avoidance somehow cut into your crit rate, though, I believe that's incorrect. The crit% for the swing is the fraction of actual swings that will crit, regardless of what else is going on.
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:54PM
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
I think Rachel means that rogue can miss a special while under Cold Blood, or warrior can miss an attack under Recklness.
Its quite easy to reproduce - have a warrior with recklness attack a rogue with evasion.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Originally Posted by Drauk,April 10th, 2006 @ 1:24PM
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:54PM
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
I think Rachel means that rogue can miss a special while under Cold Blood, or warrior can miss an attack under Recklness.
Its quite easy to reproduce - have a warrior with recklness attack a rogue with evasion.
Originally Posted by Drauk,April 10th, 2006 @ 2:24PM
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:54PM
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
I think Rachel means that rogue can miss a special while under Cold Blood, or warrior can miss an attack under Recklness.
Its quite easy to reproduce - have a warrior with recklness attack a rogue with evasion.
missing and dodging are two seperate things. If I'm not mistaken, it's hit/miss, then determines if it crits, then dodge, parry, block. I'm not really positive about the ordering of the dodge/parry/block aspect, but it's hard to determine, and *probably* doesn't have any major effects. This is why, even if your tooltip says 30% to crit, damage meteres will generally only read 20%, as it calculates in the missed/dodged/blocked/parried hits into that % (combatstats will usually read 30% however, as it only looks at the hits that landed).
Originally Posted by Praetorian,April 10th, 2006 @ 4:33PM
No, hits and crits are independent, which is what is being discussed. It's more like:
1) Hit OR Crit OR Miss
2) If !Miss, then Dodge/Parry/Block
Against same-level foe, without dual-wield, you have a 5% chance to miss. Let's say you have a 15% crit rate.
If you attack 100 times, you will get 15 "crits", 80 "hits", and 5 "misses"
+hit gear turns "misses" into hits
+crit gear turns "hits" into crits
If you get +5% hit from gear, you will now get 15 crits and 85 hits. No misses.
If you instead got +5% crit from gear, you would instead get 20 crits, 75 hits, and 5 misses.
There's a flaw in that. Misses and dodge/parry/blocks are independent of each other. I have 10% to hit and my specials can still be dodged, parried and blocked. I think it's closer to what XI said.
Attack = Hit Lands OR Mitigation
Hit: Hit OR Crit OR Miss
Mitigation: Dodge, Parry, Block.
My understanding is that mitigation takes place following an actual hit. First comes player-based action, +hit making it harder to miss. After that, the opposing player has the ability to mitigate the damage through whatever means are available. If you've ever played a Shadow Hearts game it would be like the Ring of Fate:
Grey: Miss
Yellow: Hit, but it's possible for the enemy to dodge, etc.
Orange: Critical, cannot be dodged.
Obviously, a good player never misses because they constantly crit, but you're relying on a RNG in WoW, so much of it is up in the air.
Now, as for missing with Cold Blood, look at Recklessness and Cold Blood:
Recklessness is Mod Crit Percent. Cold Blood is Add Flat Modifier (probably because it's necessary to prevent abilities outside of it's intended range from using it up). Now look at Dagger Spec. It's also Mod Crit Percent, and we know that it adds a flat crit chance. Now, I'm fairly sure that you cannot dodge, etc a warrior using Recklessness (correct me if I'm wrong). Cold Blood, on the other hand is designated a crit after the fact, so, in short if you hit it's upgraded to a critical immediately.
<08-07-09 02:09>[Velth] This is the behavior of a benefactor of the EJ forums?
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 10th, 2006 @ 1:54PM
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
Well, what I'd meant was, I was under the impression that +crit won't do anything to penetrate your miss rate. Like, if you had a theoretical 100% crit rate and no +hit talents or gear, you'd still have the base miss rate.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,April 10th, 2006 @ 4:33PM
No, hits and crits are independent, which is what is being discussed.Â* It's more like:
1) Hit OR Crit OR Miss
2) If !Miss, then Dodge/Parry/Block
Against same-level foe, without dual-wield, you have a 5% chance to miss.Â* Let's say you have a 15% crit rate.
If you attack 100 times, you will get 15 "crits", 80 "hits", and 5 "misses"
+hit gear turns "misses" into hits
+crit gear turns "hits" into crits
If you get +5% hit from gear, you will now get 15 crits and 85 hits.Â* No misses.
If you instead got +5% crit from gear, you would instead get 20 crits, 75 hits, and 5 misses.
Your explanation best fits my experience. Only possible exception would be
2) If !Hit, then Dodge/Parry/Block
Zellyn's explanation of Cold blood's effect being different than standard crit makes a lot of sense to supplement that.
For whatever reason though, I almost want to say crit is on a higher tier than missing...because while dual wielding, under the effect of recklessness, your measured miss rate (though still there) appears to be much lower than standard.
It's possible that that can be attributed to your character sheet crit rate being 125% or whatever (if your base is 25%) when using recklessness, so if your miss rate is 15% after gear, you'd end up missing on ~10% of actual attacks (since it's rolling out of 140 instead of 100).
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 3:05PM
Originally Posted by Arawethion,April 10th, 2006 @ 1:54PM
Originally Posted by Rachel,April 10th, 2006 @ 12:41PM
I thought someone had proven that crits can miss.
Well, that's a kind of empty statement in it's own right--a swing can't be both a "crit" and a "miss" simultaneously, so what does that mean?
Well, what I'd meant was, I was under the impression that +crit won't do anything to penetrate your miss rate. Like, if you had a theoretical 100% crit rate and no +hit talents or gear, you'd still have the base miss rate.
You are correct, crit rate is calculated over all possible attacks (includes misses).
I know it's slightly offtopic, but does anyone have any idea regarding where glancing hits fall into all these hitting calculations? I did some quick & easy alterations to CombatStats(see below) and tonight on lethon 139 hits were glancing, and only 21 other regular hits were not (I think about 25-30% were glancing out of the total)! I don't think it's generally that high of a rate, but I'd be interested in seeing what % of glancing other people were seeing with what spec / bosses / +weapon skill (humans / orcs) / etc.
in "CombatStats.lua" (This should be somewhere around line 612) replace:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
WITH:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
if ( string.find(arg1, "glancing") ) then
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Glancing","hit",damage,curtime);
else
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
end
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
Think of each swing as a pie, totaling 100%. Each of the various things that can happen on a swing (crit, miss, dodge, parry, block, crush) has a slice of the pie, of a magnitude corresponding to it's listed percentage. These things don't interact with each other all. The leftover slice is "hit." The only function of +hit gear is to shrink the "miss" slice.
The point of confusion is what happens when some things claim to raise a particular slice to 100% (so now the total size of the pie is greater than 100%), such as Cold Blood, Shield Block, etc. In all these cases, the handling is easily verifiable experimentally.
Originally Posted by maxpowers,April 10th, 2006 @ 9:19PM
I know it's slightly offtopic, but does anyone have any idea regarding where glancing hits fall into all these hitting calculations? I did some quick & easy alterations to CombatStats(see below) and tonight on lethon 139 hits were glancing, and only 21 other regular hits were not (I think about 25-30% were glancing out of the total)! I don't think it's generally that high of a rate, but I'd be interested in seeing what % of glancing other people were seeing with what spec / bosses / +weapon skill (humans / orcs) / etc.
in "CombatStats.lua" (This should be somewhere around line 612) replace:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
WITH:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
if ( string.find(arg1, "glancing") ) then
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Glancing","hit",damage,curtime);
else
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
end
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
Have you bee able to find a version of combat stats that's not the gimped horrible single-panel readout? I really, really miss the old version that allowed me to select a specific attack and see all the recorded data for that attack. It made analysis infinitely simpler.
Originally Posted by Wodin,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:20AM
Originally Posted by maxpowers,April 10th, 2006 @ 9:19PM
I know it's slightly offtopic, but does anyone have any idea regarding where glancing hits fall into all these hitting calculations? I did some quick & easy alterations to CombatStats(see below) and tonight on lethon 139 hits were glancing, and only 21 other regular hits were not (I think about 25-30% were glancing out of the total)! I don't think it's generally that high of a rate, but I'd be interested in seeing what % of glancing other people were seeing with what spec / bosses / +weapon skill (humans / orcs) / etc.
in "CombatStats.lua" (This should be somewhere around line 612) replace:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
WITH:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
if ( string.find(arg1, "glancing") ) then
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Glancing","hit",damage,curtime);
else
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
end
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
Have you bee able to find a version of combat stats that's not the gimped horrible single-panel readout? I really, really miss the old version that allowed me to select a specific attack and see all the recorded data for that attack. It made analysis infinitely simpler.
Wodin, whatever version CT is including with CTmod off their site is the single attack version. If you fix the registerforsave issue, it works fine in 1.10.
I'm with you, I loathe the version that tries to look like Recap. Then again, I loathe recap.
Now, mechanics:
Known: Crit/hit/miss is one single determination.
Out of 100 attacks, if your crit% is C and your +hit is H, with a base miss of M (5% for 2H/single wield, 24% for dual wield, modified by the weapon skill vs. defense differential):
C attacks will crit.
M - H attacks will miss.
100 - C - (M - H) attacks will hit.
Now, the question is: if C + M > 100, what happens?
Miss has priority over crit. This is why Cold Blood attacks can miss, be dodged, or parried.
The way dodge/parry fit in isn't known, but it's assumed to work in much the same way, they replace chunks out of the "hit" portion of the table.
Dodge/parry can be shown to override crit as well, with the same Cold Blood test.
I haven't tested Block, but presume it takes priority. I don't know that to be true.
The order in which dodge, parry, and block take precedence over one another is unknown and probably very difficult to test.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Originally Posted by Wodin,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:20AM
Have you bee able to find a version of combat stats that's not the gimped horrible single-panel readout? I really, really miss the old version that allowed me to select a specific attack and see all the recorded data for that attack. It made analysis infinitely simpler.
Ehm, im using version 5.0 (singlepanel version). And when i Alt+click on Combatstat panel, i see old window that allows selecting a specific spell and see detailed stats on it. However for whatever reason it doesnt use saved data that is displayed in the big panel, and thus is only shows information for current session.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Originally Posted by Kalman,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:57AM
Originally Posted by Wodin,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:20AM
Originally Posted by maxpowers,April 10th, 2006 @ 9:19PM
I know it's slightly offtopic, but does anyone have any idea regarding where glancing hits fall into all these hitting calculations?Â* I did some quick & easy alterations to CombatStats(see below) and tonight on lethon 139 hits were glancing, and only 21 other regular hits were not (I think about 25-30% were glancing out of the total)!Â* I don't think it's generally that high of a rate, but I'd be interested in seeing what % of glancing other people were seeing with what spec / bosses / +weapon skill (humans / orcs) / etc.
in "CombatStats.lua" (This should be somewhere around line 612) replace:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
WITH:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
if ( string.find(arg1, "glancing") ) then
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Glancing","hit",damage,curtime);
else
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
end
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
Have you bee able to find a version of combat stats that's not the gimped horrible single-panel readout? I really, really miss the old version that allowed me to select a specific attack and see all the recorded data for that attack. It made analysis infinitely simpler.
Wodin, whatever version CT is including with CTmod off their site is the single attack version. If you fix the registerforsave issue, it works fine in 1.10.
I'm with you, I loathe the version that tries to look like Recap. Then again, I loathe recap.
Now, mechanics:
Known: Crit/hit/miss is one single determination.
Out of 100 attacks, if your crit% is C and your +hit is H, with a base miss of M (5% for 2H/single wield, 24% for dual wield, modified by the weapon skill vs. defense differential):
C attacks will crit.
M - H attacks will miss.
100 - C - (M - H) attacks will hit.
Now, the question is: if C + M > 100, what happens?
Miss has priority over crit. This is why Cold Blood attacks can miss, be dodged, or parried.
The way dodge/parry fit in isn't known, but it's assumed to work in much the same way, they replace chunks out of the "hit" portion of the table.
Dodge/parry can be shown to override crit as well, with the same Cold Blood test.
I haven't tested Block, but presume it takes priority. I don't know that to be true.
The order in which dodge, parry, and block take precedence over one another is unknown and probably very difficult to test.
I believe this is the most accurate description of the way all of this works.
Also fyi a blue post already confirmed that crit,hit,miss are all done on the one roll. Unfortunately he/she didn't mention how dodge/parry/block factor in.
Originally Posted by dreadnor,April 11th, 2006 @ 6:47AM
Originally Posted by Kalman,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:57AM
Originally Posted by Wodin,April 11th, 2006 @ 1:20AM
Originally Posted by maxpowers,April 10th, 2006 @ 9:19PM
I know it's slightly offtopic, but does anyone have any idea regarding where glancing hits fall into all these hitting calculations? I did some quick & easy alterations to CombatStats(see below) and tonight on lethon 139 hits were glancing, and only 21 other regular hits were not (I think about 25-30% were glancing out of the total)! I don't think it's generally that high of a rate, but I'd be interested in seeing what % of glancing other people were seeing with what spec / bosses / +weapon skill (humans / orcs) / etc.
in "CombatStats.lua" (This should be somewhere around line 612) replace:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
WITH:
for creatureName, damage in string.gfind(arg1, "You hit (.+) for (%d+)") do
if ( string.find(arg1, "glancing") ) then
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Glancing","hit",damage,curtime);
else
CombatStats_AddSpecialData("Default","hit",damage,curtime);
end
CombatStats_AddDPSEntry("Your", damage);
return;
end
Have you bee able to find a version of combat stats that's not the gimped horrible single-panel readout? I really, really miss the old version that allowed me to select a specific attack and see all the recorded data for that attack. It made analysis infinitely simpler.
Wodin, whatever version CT is including with CTmod off their site is the single attack version. If you fix the registerforsave issue, it works fine in 1.10.
I'm with you, I loathe the version that tries to look like Recap. Then again, I loathe recap.
Now, mechanics:
Known: Crit/hit/miss is one single determination.
Out of 100 attacks, if your crit% is C and your +hit is H, with a base miss of M (5% for 2H/single wield, 24% for dual wield, modified by the weapon skill vs. defense differential):
C attacks will crit.
M - H attacks will miss.
100 - C - (M - H) attacks will hit.
Now, the question is: if C + M > 100, what happens?
Miss has priority over crit. This is why Cold Blood attacks can miss, be dodged, or parried.
The way dodge/parry fit in isn't known, but it's assumed to work in much the same way, they replace chunks out of the "hit" portion of the table.
Dodge/parry can be shown to override crit as well, with the same Cold Blood test.
I haven't tested Block, but presume it takes priority. I don't know that to be true.
The order in which dodge, parry, and block take precedence over one another is unknown and probably very difficult to test.
I believe this is the most accurate description of the way all of this works.
Also fyi a blue post already confirmed that crit,hit,miss are all done on the one roll. Unfortunately he/she didn't mention how dodge/parry/block factor in.
Ding ding ding, the three are rolled for at a single time, and just like a d6, you can not get two different answers from one roll. On dodge/parry/block I would imagine that they are rolled for on the same roll as crit/hit/miss as you can not crit and get blocked at the same time, but you can hit but get block...so maybe they are all rolled for at the same time, but when blocking, parrying, and dodging the output comes out as normal white "damage".
04/10/06, 9:39 AM
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