I don't understand why everyone is so convinced that all the possible outcomes for an incoming attack are calculated at the same time (i.e. as a percentage of 100). If there is hard evidence to back this up, please explain it to me... but all of my evidence points to the combat 'outcome' behaving as a random, sequential sequence. In terms of programing, think of it as a nested 'if else' rather than an 'or.' To repost a thought from This Thread, because it seemed to have been looked over, consider the following:
Originally Posted by Darkarwen
I was under the impression that as far as mitigation is concered, there is a percentage based chance for each possibility that 'goes down the line.' To put that in more easily managable terms, consider this situation: A mob attacks you - ONE of the following can happen. (Not necesarily in this particular order)
Block
Crit
Crush
Dodge
Parry
Hit
Miss
The mechanics don't lump it into 'hit' or 'mitigate' (i.e. dividing those sections into two.. one for dodge/parry/miss/block and one for hit/crush/crit) they calculate the chance of each individually. Whilest the exact order is unknown, as long as Block is calculated before Crit and or crushing, then 25% block + Shield Block would mean that you could never get crit. The game essentially rolls a die for each possible outcome... If the value comes up true (i.e. 1-25 if you have 25% block) then that is the outcome, and the procedure has no need to continue. If the result is false (i.e. 26-100 if you have 25% block) then it determines that the attack was NOT blocked, and moves on to the next possibility.
I don't really get what you are trying to say.
On the one hand, you are bringing up an if-else procedure, yet in the example it is again a one-roll (of course, if the roll is not 1-25, it is not a block. No need to do another roll here).
And again, the procedure of an if-else has already been proven wrong, as you would lose some % in this event.
See my posting somewhere above or again here: http://evilempireguild.org/guides/combatmath.html
How Does It All Work?
Hitting, missing and critting is a pretty important aspect of the warrior, most would agree. How does it all work, though? There's a common belief amongst players that when you swing your weapon, a series of checks takes place:
- Random to see if your attack misses
- Random to see if your attack is dodged
- Random to see if your attack is parried
- Random to see if your attack is blocked
- Random to see if your attack is a critical hit
- If you get here, your attack is a normal hit
This is a short-circuit evaluation - you run down the possibilities, and jump out at the first point that one of the conditions comes true. In this case, you jump out when a generated random number is less than or equal to the chance to miss/dodge/parry/block/crit, and if you get past crit, you have made a regular hit. When you first consider it, this is the idea that makes sense right away. It can't possibly be what actually happens, though, for two reasons. The first is mathematical, and ties into this statement from Blizzard: The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses. (From here. Read it all, we'll refer to it later). If we determined the result of an attack using the above method, then the dodge, parry, block, and critical hit numbers would be wrong - you would not get your 5% critical hit rate over all swings - and so the above statement would be false (proof here). That's the real showstopper.
The second reason is technical. Consider this: How many attacks are being made every second on the server, when you count all players and mobs in combat at a given time? Thousands, certainly. The calculation power needed for thousands of simultaneous players adds up quickly, and if you throw in five random number calculations (six for mobs with crushing blows) for every combat action, you will very quickly bog down the server by sheer number of calculations. You definitely need a better, faster, way.
*edit* Thats a really interesting read, and a pretty well thought out proof, I am not sure how I have never seen it before, but thanks for exposing me to it. I will definetly relay it on to my friends and guildmates.
I'm not understanding the Thottbot links. They seem to indicate that it would affect healing.
Sadly, Thott's data is misleading. It certainly only affects spell damage.
The general idea seems to be that 25% passive block + shield block means on crits/crushing blows are removed from the lookup table.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I had heard rumors in the past of Anticipation being able to reduce the crushing blow % below the 15% cap. Has this been disproved? If not, could this be a factor that was influncing data parsing? If someone did the parsing with Anticipation and got no blocked crushing blows, that would seem to be more of an explination then the 25% inate block theory.
Instead of adding Defence skill like items (with 300/300 (+140)) in your skills tab it adds it to your base skill (310/310 (130)) for the purposes of crushing blows you would count as level 62, and therefore nothing in the game is currently high enough level to actually crushing blow you.
I believe their is a wealth of evidence that having 5/5 anticipation does not reduce your crushing blow frequency by 2/3rds. The talent would be ridiculously overpowered if that were the case.
With ample use of imp shield block, I did manage to get my incoming crushing blow % down to 5-8% on some high physical attack bosses lately. About that time my MT priest started smiting...
Yeah, i watched my combat log last night saw a couple crushing blows :( so much for that idea
I'm sure this has already been checked and dismissed, but since I don't recall seeing it I'll voice it anyway. Is it possible the x/310 via Anticipation is reducing the severity of incoming crushing blows similar to the way weapon skill mitigates the severity, but not the frequency of glancing blows?
Ok, I'm gonna throw out some theories. I probably wont prove anything but it's something to think about.
First, I'll assume the single table-based system because it has the most agreement with in game experimentation.
We've pretty much determined that a person with 5% chance to miss, and 10% chance to crit will get a regular hit 85% of the time.
We have noticed that 100% block rate means you have a 0% chance to get crushing blows.
We have noticed that anything less than 100% block rate may result in a crushing blow. I will assume this is true.
(My first problem is that I've only seen one log in this thread that says that this is true, and the crushing blow happened .5 of a second before the shield block should have ended, I can see server lag accounting for a: an incorrect start time of the shield bash buff, and b: an incorrect report of the time the crushing blow landed, leading to the buff having faded on the server but not the client)
We know that even when you have 100% shield block rate, parries and dodges still get through.
Ok, so let's start with a standard setup: 5% miss, 5% dodge, 10% parry, 10% block. The table looks like this:
0-50 Miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
200-300 block
300-850 hit
850-1000 crushing blow
Now the question is: What happens when your miss+dodge+parry+block > 100%?
Assume block has the lowest priority and will be cut off: Assume 5% miss, 5% dodge, 10% parry, 85% block
We get:
0-50 Miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
200-1000 block
BUT... we know that with less than 100% chance to block some crushing blows get through...
So, let's revise.
0-50 miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
200-850 block
850-1000 crushing
Now there's a problem with this. Because if we assume 100% block chance we have the exact same table (using the same rules) But our first rule states that with 100% block chance, you don't get any crushing blows through.
So let's assume block stacks on top of parry and dodge. With 95% block chance.
0-50 miss -------|
50-100 dodge---| - 10% block
100-200 parry
200-850 hit
850-1000 crushing
You would never block. And we know this is not the case.
So what else could cause this behavior?
What if the blocks were superimposed on to the hit chance, as a ratio instead of just a flat number? It works mathematically something like a second roll, but not technically.
Assume 5% miss chance, 10% parry, 5% dodge, 80% block.
0-50 miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
Block = (1000-200)*.8 = 640
200-840 block
840-850 hit
950-1000 crushing blow
Assume 5% miss chance, 10% parry, 5% dodge, 99% block.
0-50 miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
Block = (1000-200)*.99 = 792
200-992 block
992-1000 crushing blow
Assume 5% miss chance, 10% parry, 5% dodge, 100% block.
0-50 miss
50-100 dodge
100-200 parry
Block = (1000-200)*1 = 800
200-1000 block
I think this is feasible, it maintains the single table system. It distorts the block percentage, but in my experience the block rate doesn't always corrolate with the character sheet.
It makes sense to me as well logically. Blizzard doesn't want shield block to interfere with parry or dodge, since both of them are full mitigation. What I think they do is they subtract from their full table the chances to miss dodge, and parry, and then apply block as a ratio of the leftovers, first eating up regular hits, then eating up crushing blows, and then finally eating up crits. (assuming your defense hasn't already reduced those to zero)
It could possibly go regular hits, then crits, then crushing blows, but this seems backwards to me since crits are 200% while crushing blows are only 150%
If this is the case having a high dodge and parry as well as a high shield block will further reduce crushing blows. But you will never go to 0% crushing blows unless a: you have 100% shield block. b: your defense is low enough that enough crits get through that it pushes it down. c: You're less than 3 levels below your target :P
IE: 5% miss, 10% parry, 5% dodge, 90% block. Enemy has 8% chance to crit against you
That is of course assuming crushing blows are consumed by block before crits.
What do you guys think?
Do you have any data to back this up, or disprove it?
Zeidrich
Originally Posted by bartolimu
Believe it or not, I'm sorry it came to this. Not really intensely sorry, but that kind of mildly disappointed, resigned sorry that happens when I see a puppy walk head-first into a window, back up, stare bewildered at it for a second, then walk head-first into the window again.
1.The Combat Table is as follows from 0 to 100:
Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Critical hit
Crushing blow (only pve)
Normal hit
There are no "checks" if it will miss and then check again if it will dodge or parry - there is only 1 roll.
2. Blocking chance if high enough will kick crit/crushing/normalhit out of the combat table. This means that if you have 100% block you will not recieve critical hit, crushing blow or normal (unblocked) hit.
I have tested it for over 1 year on all raid bosses existing in the game. Of course it is fine to be suspicious so if you want to udnergo your own test I would suggest that you use Satrina's combat monitor addon. A very simple test is to tank Baron Gedon - his normal melee attacks are fire dmg based so you cant block it - put on 440 def and you will see 0 crits and 15% crushing blows no matter if you spam shield block or not. leep in mind that a 63lvl mob/boss has exactly a15% chance to land a crushing blow on you. Then go tank another boss that has melee attack speed around 2.5 and has no instant melee skills (i.e. Lucifron). Spam shield block and at the end check the results - the crushing blows will be around 1%.
Enjoy.
...and I shall never find Solace for I was born Restless...
Do you have any data to back this up, or disprove it?
Zeidrich
Yes, That theory is debunked because of the 550 defense warrior test. If blocking worked as you suggested, that warrior would get hit by a normal blow, but this was not the case. Even when he did not have shield block up, ALL the attacks that went through were blocked.
Although, I must admit that the sample size was abit too small to be 100% conclusive.
At one point in this thread we were discussing why 25% passive block is needed to push crits/crushing blows. The basic single table lookup system would suggest that if (miss+parry+dodge+block) >= 100, there would be no room for crits and crushiing blows.
Since we now know (or speculate) that, block >= 100 for crits/CBs to be pushed off then there is an aspect to the combat system that we are yet to figure out.
1.The Combat Table is as follows from 0 to 100:
Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Critical hit
Crushing blow (only pve)
Normal hit
There are no "checks" if it will miss and then check again if it will dodge or parry - there is only 1 roll.
I think there is a "priority" on said debuff/buffs that causes the table to change in combat, still roll once mind you, but some things hold more weight than others. Which leads people to come up with the "checks" conclusion. The thing is certain stats hold more weight in combat than others. Miss > Parry > Dodge > Block > Crit > Crush > Hit
We all know, that when you add Parry/Dodge/Block, these things take from the hit table. That is +1% Parry = -1% hit. The thing that makes people say specifically is, "Well it checks for dodge/parry before it checks for block! So if your block is at 100% after it fails it's dodge/parry check block stops it!" is what causes confusion(I should know, I used to think the exact same way).
There is a sense of priority in fact, if you had 50% Parry and 50% Dodge, and you added +1% Parry, would you have 51% parry and 50% dodge? No, actually you'd have 51% Parry and 49% Dodge, Parry holds more weight, this is the reason block doesn't override dodge/parry/miss.
Missing holds more weight than anything, it would be deterimental to a defender if their miss rate was at 95% to allow dodge/parry/block to happen in place of miss. Same with Miss/Dodge/Parry. If you had 40% dodge/40%parry/40% Miss, you would have 40% Miss/40% Parry/20% Dodge. If you had 50% Block/20% Parry/20% Dodge/20% Miss, you rates would be 20%/Miss/20% Parry/20% Dodge/40% Block.
Basically the order is important, even though everything is checked at once, anything below the other on this list is taken up by the thing above it I've found.
Miss - If a mob put +100% miss on you, none of the below would happen(unconfirmed) Example 1
Parry - With 100% Parry the only other thing that can happen is miss(8-piece Wrath) Example 2
Dodge - With 100% dodge, parry/miss still happen(Evasion) Example 3
Block - With 100% Block, dodge/parry/miss still happen(Shield Block) Example 4
Glancing - With 100% Crit, Glancing still happens, but so do miss/parry/dodge/block(Recklessness) Example 5
Crit - With 100% crit, miss/parry/dodge/block still happen, normal hit does not(Recklessness again) Example 6
Crush - ???(Unsure)
Hit - always happens without inflation, added stats, and is dead last priority, first to be replaced(Zing) in addition 100% hit is not possible, but if it was, it would look like Example 7
Example 1: 100% miss table:
100% miss ;p
Example 2: 100% parry table:
5% miss
95% parry
Example 3: 100% dodge table:
5% miss
5% parry
90% dodge
Example 4: 100% block table
5% miss
5% parry
5% dodge
85% block
Example 5 & 6: 100% crit table against glancing/hit
5% miss
5% parry
5% dodge
5% block
40% glancing
40% crit
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
If we assume (tested during the shieldbug patch) that 100% block prevents crushing attacks, and that all is calculated from one roll, together with enabling a player to get crushing hits when at fx 98% block (even though other factors like miss/parry/dodge might prevent this).
I'll just try to make a table explaining how it could work.
01-55 normal block
56-65 dodge block
66-75 parry block
76-80 miss block
81-85 crit block
86-98 crushing block
99-100 crushing
with block overruling crit/crushing
reason why this might work: if one runs a meter of some kind, and looks at parry/dodge/block, while not using imp shieldblock, one will see that the block rate is pretty much equal to the one shown in one's skill book.
We've also seen screenshots of tanks getting crushing with UBS + shieldblock on, which leaves around 98% block, this indicates that crushing hits are the last thing pushed off.
We also know that one's parry/dodge + the miss chance are the same while using shieldblock (or at least my personal tests shows that).
So, basically block will have to start in the other end of the roll than the rest, with crushing being furthest away.
If someone posts a screenshot of crushing at some boss that doesn't reduce def skill, while having 25%+ base block and shieldblock active, i'm going to be unhappy.
Rumors are that Warriors are taking more Crushing Blows lately, and someone even said that CBs are based on PPM now.
Well, nothing is proven yet, but it is an interesting issue. If you got more info on that, please post them. :)
This "crushing is ppm based now" doesn't really hold any water, since nothing is "true" ppm in this game, it's just a term invented to explain that different weapon speeds have different procc % rates.
Example, you get more crusader proccs with slow weapons, since the % chance is calculated off speed, then all speeds get the same amount of instant-attacks. Still people is calling it "ppm based".
06/14/06, 7:58 AM
in EJBSG 17 (soundtrack)
Similar Threads
