Kobal

Hello everyone,

I have been playing a Sword Rogue (20/31/0) for a long time and am seriously thinking about switching to Dagger Combat, as

- The damage is simply higher if you play well
- I want something new for a change.

The ideal Combat Dagger Spec would look like the following:

Assassination:
Malice 5/5
Improved Slice and Dice 3/3
Ruthlessness 3/3
Relentless Strikes 1/1
Lethality 5/5

Combat:
7 Points somewhere
Improved Backstab 3/3
Precision 5/5
Dagger Specialization 5/5
Dual Wield Specialization 5/5
Blade Flurry 1/1

Subtlety:
5 Points somewhere
Opportunity 5/5

Unfortunately that's 53 talent points. So where would be the best place to cut? In many forum posts it is suggested to cut one point each in Improved Slice and Dice and in Dagger Specialization.

Now I did a test run on Brogetta's (yes, i know it is not perfect) and was surprised that cutting a point in Improved Slice and Dice will gimp your DPS significantly more than cutting a point in Dagger Specialization or Lethality. On second thought it sort of makes sense. Dagger Combat has probably the slowest combo point generation of any Rogue spec - after all the philosophy is that there is not much useful to do with combo points except to keep SnD running - and so Improved SnD 3/3 will help a lot to get you going at the beginning of the fight, plus it might allow for the occasional Eviscerate, which Improved SnD 2/3 does not.

I am also not sure Blade Flurry is as good for Combat Dagger as it is for Combat Swords, especially in 40 Man Raids. However here it is very hard to do the math to see what is better.

So what are your thoughts/suggestions/opinions/arguments on this matter? Where is the best place to cut.

Please keep in mind I am almost exclusively interested in Raid-PvE.

 

• Zellyn

If you're even considering 17/24/10 then you've already decided to make yourself pretty shitty in PvP. :laugh: Just drop two points from Dagger Spec and keep Blade Flurry. You should end up with this:

17/24/10

Now, the only major caveat here is that 1.10.1 fucked Blade Flurry up with Backstab. This is nasty, nasty, nasty. Everything else goes through, but BS is fucked.

<08-07-09 02:09>[Velth] This is the behavior of a benefactor of the EJ forums?

 

Breaksmith

I don't understand the reasoning behind points in DW spec over Dagger spec. Obviously, I'm missing something.

The way I understand one point in DW Spec should work is -

If you take 50% white damage on average and off hand is 50% of that and then each point of the talent to be worth 5% of that damage, the points will add -

X = Damage

X/2 = White damage = Y

Y/2 = Off hand Damage = Z

Z/20 = 1 point of DW spec.

100/2 = 50

50/2 = 25

25/20 = 0.8% of overall Damage.

Whereas 1% crit is just 1% extra damage (plus a bit more depending on your other talents.)



So where am I going wrong here?

http://ctprofiles.net/19558

 

Kobal

Your calculation has two errors:

- Adding 1% crit does not in fact increase your damage by 1%, it increases your damage by 1% of the noncrit damage (more or less) which is less.

Example: Lets assume you have 55% crit on a backstab, and a noncrit Backstab does 1000 damage (the exact number is irrelevant for the calculation).

Then your Backstab on average dooes 0,45 * 1000 + 0,55 * 2,3 * 1000 = 1715 damage.

Now add 1% crit, then you get 0,44 * 1000 + 0,56 * 2,3 * 1000 = 1728.

So the increase is (1728 - 1715)/1715 = 0,0075 = 0,75%.

- One Point of DW-Spec is more than 1/20 of the Offhand-damage.

Example: With DW-Spec 4/5 the Offhand does 70% of the MH-Damage, with DW-Spec 5/5 the Offhand does 75% of the MH-Damage. So the Jump from DW-Spec 4/5 to DW-Spec 5/5 increases the Offhand-damage by (75-70)/70 = 0,714 = 7,14%.

 

Breaksmith

Ok, the first bit I totally understand. As you're increasing damage across crits and hits with DW spec, that's total, not pre-crit damage and I'm comparing it to pre-crit damage. Ok, cool with that.

The second bit I'm not so clear on. This is probably me just being dim. I am after all a warrior. BAD DRAGON! RRRRRRRRRR!

I was going to carry on here, but I think I'll stop at "no, sorry, you lost me." Can I get some expantion on that bit?

http://ctprofiles.net/19558

 

• Wodin

Each point of DW spec is worth, at minimum, 5% of the DPS of your weapon + 5% of the DPS of your AP. As a raider, that's probably going to be about 60DPS from the weapon and another 50DPS from the AP unbuffed, for about a 5.5DPS increase per point of DW spec. Crit doesn't buy us that much.

 

Breaksmith

Now that I understand.

Thank you.

http://ctprofiles.net/19558

 

◊ Kalman

Also, you really shouldn't base calculations off Brogetta's, being as his/her calculator has flaws in how it handles CP generation and usage.

2/3 ISnD is enough to allow you to keep SnD up at all times with minimal energy waste, which is what your goal should really be. I prefer 16/25/10 with one point cut from ISnD, one point cut from Dagger Spec.

(Until your base single target DPS is in the region of 700+, DW spec should outdo dagger spec. I haven't rigorously checked where they even out, but it's definitely a region that's out of reach for rogues at this time.).

 

Kytrarewn

Are you talking about the full upgrade from 5/5 DPS spec? Even so, it strikes me as being relatively, well, flawed.

Pugio offhand: 60.6 DPS
W/O DW spec: 30.3 DPS
W/ DW Spec: 45.45 DPS

So you get 15DPS from the weapon.

Now, let's consider that you have 840AP, which is a pretty easy number for a raider to obtain, and gives us nice numbers for mathy.

That comes out to 60DPS from AP all-told
W/O DW Spec: that's 30DPS
W/ DW spec, that's 45DPS.

So, you get an overall change of 30DPS, before crits (let's say 30% crit).

So, 60DPS * 1.3 = 39 total DPS difference from DW Spec. Much less than the 110 that you're proposing.

Just out of curiosity, let's go from 4/5 Dagger and 5/5 DW to the inverse.

OK, so, go from a multiplier of 1.5 on the Pugio to a multiplier of 1.45.

30*1.45 = 43.5
30*1.45 = 43.5

87*1.31 = 114.0DPS

90*1.30 = 117.0DPS

This is before Slice and Dice is taken into account. Assuming it's up 100% of the time, that would change the overall DPS difference from 3.0 to 3.9.

Again, it's a noticeable difference... but just barely. It's not the sort of thing I'd waste 50 gold to respec out of to fix.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

◊ chalon

This is a flaw in your calculation. If you have 840 AP pre-buffs, with raid buffs that number can go over 1200 or 1300. Or in my case, if I take my 1078 unbuffed AP, get Battle Shout, Might, TSA, Mark, Kings, Elixir of Mongoose, Elixir of Giants, and Sandworm Dumplings, I hit like 1756 raid buffed :P.

 

Kytrarewn

Ok, then let's use 1400 for more easy math.

100DPS added from AP.

30DPS from offhand without DW spec

1.5X = 45
1.45x = 43.5

Now, 100DPS added from AP

50*1.5 = 75
50* 1.45 = 72.5

So, we have an overall difference of 4.0, instead of 3.0 pre-crit.

1.3 * 130 = 169

1.31 * 126 = 165.06

So, 3.94 w/ SnD = 5.122DPS difference. Same story, definitely noticeable, but not something I'd waste 50g to fix.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Kobal

The Advantage of ISnD 3/3 is that

- it allows for a smoother and quicker rampup to those 5CP-SnDs you want to get to with more enery spent on backstabs and less on SnD.
- Once you are there it allows you to generate extra combo points which can be converted into extra damage via Eviscerate or Rupture.

Not sure this is really better than 1% more crit on Daggers, but even if Brogetta's has flaws, the difference it displayed was too significant to ignore.