Xaviar

I've been doing a lot of research on the subject of how effective offensive holy spec can be. I was not expecting to see such results. While a lot of people do not even touch smite, it can actually be just as powerful as shadow spells.

The spec is 31 disc, 20 holy. Also known as PI/holy spec.

The numbers:
Firstly, lets look at what holy spec can offer for an offensive priest.
All up, smite recieves 15% extra damage, -0.5 seconds off its cast rate and a whopping +10% of crit chance.

Combined with Power infusion, and BWL +dmg gear, this spec has the potential to match or even out-damage a fully fledged shadow priest in a pve environment. Why is this a big thing? Because this is a HEALING spec. Not only is it a healing spec, but the gear used to achieve this huge amount of dps, is also effective healing gear. Before delving into the reseach on some of these advantages, lets look at the damage side of things.

Fundamentally, its smite vs mindblast + mindflay

If the priest has little +dmg gear, shadow will out-dps holy spec. However, due to cast times and talent combinations, if the priest has very high +dmg gear, smite catches up quite rapidly.

Smite base cast speed is 2.5. Fully talented, it does an average of 470 damage. Talents also lower the cast speed to 2 seconds. This is where the massive advantage plays out. It is recieving 70% of +dmg items whilst being 2 second cast. Mind blast and mindflay are recieving 40% and 30% respectively.

Mindblast recieves approx 40% of the +dmg
SWP recieves 100%
Mindflay recieves 33ish%.
Smite recieves 70ish%

This, added with trinkets such as the ZG trinket and talisman and power infusion, will give smite an even bigger boost in damage.


Now for the other advantages: Smite is spammable, mind blast is not.
Smite doesn't produce anywhere as much aggro as mind blast.
Smite has higher dps than mindflay by a large margin.
Smite has a much higher crit rate than mind blast and mindflay simply cannot crit.
There is no holy resistance (i'm not sure if mobs have it, but players can't get it)

This spec allows one to have Power infusion, which increases all spell damage and healing by 20%, every 3 minutes. In a raid situation, this spell can be used in every third or fourth pull.

The absolute biggest advantage of this spec, is the fact that the priest is fundamentally, a fully spec'd healer with every critical healing talent. They are not stuck in shadowform. The priest would simply switch some gear over, and they would become as powerful a healer as any other spec'd priest. Shadow does not offer this.

The only advantage shadow spec can offer to a raid, is Shadow weaving for the warlocks, which will increase shadow damage by 15%.

To conclude, I personally, would rather spec into holy than shadow, as it offers a much broader range of utility and provides a very powerful amount of dps if needed. In my opinion, shadow's only advantage is direct PvP, such as dueling.

What are your thoughts?

 

Jo_

sorry for saying it but don't you think suggesting a smite build in 1.10 is a bit obvious? if you remove the +15% shadow damage debuff and vamperic embrace in a pve setting then it's no longer smite vs mindflay+mindblast but smite vs frostbolts/shadowbolts/what not with the added benefit that you can do ok healing in your damage gear instead of doing damage if needed.

 

tzu

I'm currently playing as a 32/19 specced priest in a engame raiding guild (AQ up to emps) and I have to say that I like it a lot.

I'm currently at about +320 passive damage in dps gear and I'm usually nuking during trashpulls.
* I'm typically just chaincasting smite with a few dots thrown in for good measure.
* With 4/5 silent resolve (yeah horde :) I have usually never any aggro problems with dps or healing
* mobs DO have holy resistance. Aside from the base misschance any nuke can have, I've seen numerous partial resists on holy spells, someting afaik only happens against resists in this damage type. It happens very rarely though.
* I'm not all that impressed by power infusion. sure a 1.7k smite crit is a nice thing to see as a priest, but it doesn't add a lot in total dps output, especially on trashpulls with rapidly changing targets etc. I however use it on mages during bossfights and they usually are really happy with it :)
* it is very powerful to be able to alternate between nukes and heals. stand back, nuke a bit but keep your group watched and heal as necessary. In ok dmg/heal gear you still have flashheals which don't totally suck.
* holy dmg spec is pretty lousy in duels. without ccs except fear, you hardly can nuke happily away at a disabled target like a mage, and with the spec above you miss out on many survivability talents which would help you instead. for me it usually goes back to playing like a holy priest in 1.9, dotting and outlasting my opponent. maybe I'm just bad at dueling :)
* the spec is pretty powerful for group pvp though since you can again, heal and still put out a 2s nuke with a decent punch.

 

Scorpio!

Priests can't do raid DPS because they have no mana recovery talent that is just for them.

 

Raylen

Really? Improved Healing/Spiritual Healing aren't critical talents anymore for end game raiding?

Also DrBats pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

Xaviar

I wouldn't call Spiritual Healing critical, though it is definitely a plus. Improved healing on the other hand is very important, but some priests choose to spec into 10% mana instead (this build forces the decision). What I was trying to get at is that this spec is no where near as healer unfriendly as a 31 shadow spec.

 

Raylen

We've had this argument on our internal forums. I still feel that it is not a Priest's job at all to be doing DPS on a raid except for a few cases (visc and holy firing vek'lor :V: ). Now if the tier 3 set is +dmg/healing, I know where Blizzard is taking the Priest class. But for now, I'm sticking to my Spiritual Healing build.

And fuck wasting innervates on Priests just so they can keep spamming smite when a Mage could do more damage than a Priest. Not to mention, Mages are getting reviewed next and may become even more powerful.

If you only have this build because you want to see big numbers on trash pulls, roll a Mage and save your guild loot disputes.

 

Xaviar

I guess it comes down to personal preference. The reason why I enjoy this build is because it allows me to heal extremely well (excluding spiritual healing) and also allows me to defend myself against other players, solo mobs and basically allow me to through the game on my own without relying on a party.

 

tzu

Well i guess that came out a bit wrong. Of course a priest is no proper dps class for a 'hard' bossfight since the dps can't be sustained like a mage with evocate can, so I do stick to healing in these situations.
I'm also very aware that you can squeeze out a bit more and stronger healing from a 'pure' healing spec. However with the talent revamp a proper split between dmg and healing can be made where you can do both very well, depending on gear and situation.
For my very own case, I was stuck in a 'full' healing spec for more than half a year, it never hurts to try some fresh new stuff in playstyle and spec. It's not like you can't go back if you see that current (unbeaten) encounters require it.

 

◊ Zoid

This is exactly how I felt.

I was a pure PvE healing spec for almost a year. What happened is I never played my priest in anything but raiding and felt like I lost something with him. When not raiding, I'd go off and play my alts. Hell, I have a 60 warrior in Tier 1 epics since I dragged her along to Molten Core to take passed loot in order that I could have something I could farm with.

1.10 gave me the holy damage/healing hybrid. I respec'd 31/20 last week for and I honestly felt a whole new life back into my priest. I can actually go farm for essences with him while queued for a background. I can farm Twlight Cultists for templar pieces without feeling like a gimp'd class anymore. I actually enjoy playing him outside of raiding again.

I still have Improved Healing. I'm only missing Spiritual Healing in my build, and I think that's a fine trade off between raid utility and being able to actually enjoy my character outside of the instance portal. Not too mention I get to toss Power Infusion on a mage or warlock during raiding. It seems to be becoming standard to hit one when the mob is around 80% or so and they go nuts.

If anything, 1.10 made my priest pretty much the character I always wanted him to be. A hybrid class who can hold his own.

 

Xaviar

Yeah, this was mainly my point. Pure healing isn't very fun outside of raiding, there are very limited things you can do. I was in the same situation, playing alts when not raiding. This build allows me to have excellent healing power whilst the ability to "play" the rest of the game.

I'm also having fun amassing +dmg gear :]

 

Jo_

that part of it I can relate to though and I think alot of people can. I just went another way I supose and made mine into a pvp healer instead:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/t...000000000000000
(don't laugh at lightwell I wanted to try it out and need a bit more time before trashing it, same with holy nova)
I like it because I get almost all the good pve talents (including 4/5 spiritual healing) and can still play a very fun role in group pvp.

oh well back on topic, if the op had put across his point like that I'm guessing more people would agree but instead it came across like an attempt to say that the best priest pve damage build would be holy which it isn't. the reasoning beeing that the +15% shadow damage debuff is the biggest reason to use a priest as a damage dealer in the first place.

 

◊ blindworld

If you're looking for pve damage, disc is probably best, but if you're going for pvp in there too you need to look at survivability a bit, and I think the 15% mitigation from shadowform is something that will be severly missed by any disc/holy priest, along with the added benefits of the faster cooldown on fears, the pure strength of silence, and to a lesser extent the slowing ability of mindflay that is one of the few abilities that's it is totally worthless to even attempt to trinket out. The "utility" talents you lose as a shadow priest are far less powerful in a pvp environment.

 

Scorpio!

I'll expand on my original point: That priests can't do raid DPS because they have no mana recovery talent.

The problem with priests are that they have very attractive raid talents, be them the stacking shadow vulnerability talent to vampiric embrace.
A shadow priest is the way to go for raid DPS, if you so choose. why? Because in a main tank's group, the healing done by vampiric embrace is an excellent compliment to the damage that the priest does.

why is a priest good in shadow for raids?
1) You don't need +hit gear. You have a talent that makes your +hit% as high or higher than any mage, any warlock, any warrior. Shadow Focus is ridiculous.
2) since you don't need +hit gear, you can concentrate on +damage +crit gear. Since this is the case, and the fact that the majority of your damage comes from dot and channel damage, your efficiency of +damage gear is extremely high.
3) The increase that you see in your damage with shadow weaving also increases the damage that warlocks can output, increasing their damage / mana ratio, and increasing the speed at which good warlocks can down the tougher mobs in the game.
4) You are a master of your aggro. A priest not only has subtlety in their spells, but also has an aggro drop in fade. stop DPS, fade, and allow the tank to regain aggro. The beauty of fade is that it is UNRESISTABLE. A mob will ALWAYS bounce back to the MT when a priest pulls aggro.
5) Vampiric Embrace. With the very best +shadow and +damage gear that a priest can get, he can pull out over 500DPS constant (on paper, so probably a bit lower.), with vamp embrace up that's 125 health per second to everyone in that priest's party, which should include the main tank. The health per second takes some of the strain off of your other healers, as they don't need to constantly be casting quicker heals, as the HoTs they cast + vampiric embrace is enough to allow healers to all use slower, mana efficient spells.

Sounds pretty sweet, doesn't it?
but in practice, a shadow priest in 1.9 had a mana pool that lasted roughly 5 minutes. In 1.10 after the priest changes, mental strength and mental agility for the most part are out of range of the big damage builds. this means that your instant casts (90% of the shadow spells you cast) cost more and yet you're crippled by a smaller(!) mana pool than before. The inclusion of meditation into most shadow builds is GREAT for pvp, but in pve it doesn't add much at all to the priest's longivity.

How does this compare to a heavy disc build?
A heavy disc build priest can still heal adequately. They might not have the great talents of Spiritual guildance or Spiritual Healing, but they can still cast healing spells.
Power Infusion is great fun.
Divine Spirit!
HUGE CRITS OMG.

well, to be honest, a heavy disc build with the maximum amount of +damage gear needs a lot of +hit gear too, unlike shadow. this means that you need to sac crit and +damage to make up the difference.
Also, those big crits pull more aggro, and with no sub talent even possible (Most people don't take the sub talent anyway, but I would consider it if I had crazy gear.) the threat of pulling aggro becomes present. Fade works once, but when you blow Med and PI to hit with a 2200 HF you're going to get it right back.
Moderation would be the name of the game for a heavy disc priest, whereas a shadow priest can constantly cast.

A heavy disc priest does less damage than a warlock or mage, and doesn't have a talent like vampiric embrace or shadow weaving to help offset the loss of a healer.

Mental agility does almost nothing for a heavy disc priest, as most of their damage comes from channeled spells.
Mental strength is only a temporary fix, much like +22 int.

and finally:
Neither build has a comparable talent to Evocation, Spirit Tap, or Dark Pact. this means that druids will be blowing innervates on a priest to keep their mana up, which adds almost nothing to a raid, when that same priest could be healing and keeping a mage, which chances are they'll do more damage next patch, up and alive to continue a fight.

while the oracle set points towards the implementation of a heavy disc build in raiding, with it's resistance lowering and +damage, Blizzard at this time didn't seem to follow through and give the priests the chance at a mana recovery talent, which cripples raid dps priests.
Maybe sometime in the future a priest will be able to do raid DPS, but for today heavy disc and heavy shadow builds are restricted to short term pvp encounters and molten core.

 

Raylen

^^^ Nice post, Bats

So true, I just wish EJ groups could get a game and not have to sit in the queue for so damned long. I was in one recent game with some EJ consisting of two druids, three priests including myself, two shamans, a warrior and maybe someone else, I forget. We had a few pubbies but for the most part it was us. It wasn't the best Alliance but a few of them had BWL items. We won pretty easily but they made it slow because of the druid and rogues that would try to sneak out with the flag.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000

Here is my lolspiritual healing build. I hope to get the Scarab Brooch then pop Inner Focus, Hibernation Crystal, Brooch and then PoH in PVP and hope for some Crits. Also 8/8 Trans is one of, if not, the best pve/pvp set bonus if you have a lot of +healing. I know I can get my Renews up to 470 and my Gheal Renews to 301 per tick. MSes all over the place won't help my healing but the extra 150 per tick definitely does. Plus, for some reason, Alliance Priests are dumb and don't dispel. Oh right, we have Shamans to Purge, my bad :V:

 

Incoherence

There are basically two holy DPS builds, both of which have been mentioned in this thread. The PI/FoW build gives up a bit more in healing ability, but I seem to remember has higher DPS with enough damage gear, and allows for hilarity by PIing mages at inopportune times. There's also the SG option. The nice thing about SG is that by picking up Searing Light and perhaps Holy Spec, you become a decent damage dealer AND pick up pretty much every important healing talent (you might have to give up Spell Warding or something for Holy Spec). Even in what appears to be the new standard build, 21/30, you can easily pick up Searing Light, which is nice. (Yeah, 21/30 is a bit more flexible than the old 26/25, but it's about as common.)

As for a damage priest in raids, Meditation moving up did help shadow priest longevity to some extent... nothing on the level of Evocation/Life Tap, but something. Silent Resolve is very much reachable (I had Martyrdom for awhile pre-1.10 and it never helped me much, so I have 4/5 Silent Resolve).

Question for someone who's tried: do Chromaggus/BWL trash mob that everyone mind blasts for fun also have high holy resist? I'm almost certain they can't have a weakness to holy, but does that mean a smite priest would be essentially worthless for those 2 godawful triple dragon pulls and the Chromaggus fight (well, at least worthless as a DPS class)?

 

◊ Shalas

High holy resist. I bring a full set of wands for those, as smite hits for 50-100.

 

Crossbones

I used to be heavily shadow-specced, but after the patch I'm 32/19/0, but it's purely for PvP. I love the build, though. Totally blows shadow away in my opinion. Highly unresistable quick-nukes is alot of fun. Like shadow, it's not all that workable in PvE unless you're doing trash or already farmable bosses (plus as mentioned you lose shadow weaving for the warlocks).

PI doesn't stack with AP anymore after the mini-patch. Those 7k crits were kind of fun, but it's probably best that they don't stack.

Most of my old gear was +shadow so I'm only running around +200 damage right now. I'm trying to stack alot of crit. I have ~20% with talents and gear. Does anyone know how much int priests need per crit?

 

kaytwo

The fun thing about those is that it's some sort of mod damage % "all spells but..." type mechanic so that it doesn't use the normal spell resistance checks (remember kids, there is no holy resistance!). The nasty (good?) thing is that there's no "all spells but holy" setting :).

Thanks to judgement of ezmode and my desire to see big yellow numbers rather than big green ones I have a wand for every element except fire in my bag and i swap them out on drakonids.

Speaking of judgement of ezmode and priest dps...

first off, I would agree that mana regen is #1 when it comes to "lol raid dps priest." But... with a fast wand and JoW, alliance priests can maintain ~100 dps while regenning ~42mp/tick on top of the 40mp/5 from blessing of ezmode and spirit/mp5 on gear. I've been kicking around the heavy-mp5 shadow spec raid dps build in my head for a while but never had the chance (or the # of good high dps warlocks/SW:P happy priests in the raid) to try it. I used to have the theorycraft for "mana regenned vs. spent with judgement up at all times" and "sustained dps at such-and-such mp5" written up, but can't find where I wrote it and don't feel like doing the factor labeling again.

I guess the final conclusion I come to when I think about this sort of thing for a long time is that a shadow priest is a good "raid utility caster" much like a warlock.......... without the HUGE shadowbolt crits ALL the time... or the easily sustained damage output. You get +15% shadow damage (helpful with lots of locks and/or SW:P's) and a decently powerful hot on the MT at all times without even having to think about putting it up, and I guess when the shit hits the fan you get a mediocre-to-crappy healer (i've always tried to get +dmg/heal vs. +shadow even though it's harder on the item budget... ) in addition to a fully viable pw:s spammer when the global cooldown isn't a real factor.

When you aren't shadow, however, you lose those two biggest "utility" marks, and the "mediocre to crappy" healer part improves to "mediocre to decent" at best. Much more importantly, however, you get hurt a lot more in the weakest area, mana spent/time to sustain your dps. Chain casting smite is 140 mana/s while mind flay is a measly 68... and I think that's all there is to say about that.

jeez, i feel like that snowfox guy on r&d, whispering sweet shadow dps nothings in everyone's ears.

 

saramin

To continue the lolshadow derailment, keep in mind that mind flay uses an absolutely horrid +dmg% coefficient compared to what a warlock or mage would get despite it being the staple spell that you'll be spamming. This is offset somewhat in ZG/MC guilds by the relatively minor role +spelldmg gear plays, the sexy dmg:mana efficiency of mind flay, and shadowform/shadoweaving. That said, as you progress further and further into endgame content as a shadow priest you'll be receiving very minor returns on gear despite using the same ilvl budget.

Our guild has a token shadow priest since we ran some numbers and found out that shadoweaving is worth the loss in diversification. VE can be decent in certain fights assuming creative party makeup as well. Mostly though it's amusing due to the drama. I understand the priest channel brims with lively profanity when it comes time to decide who gets to specs shadow for the month.

Regarding holy spec, it's nice since for all its detriments it lets you switch on the fly part of your raid makeup from healing (endurance-oriented) to dps (burst-oriented). Given how creative some of the AQ bosses are, this is a nice touch especially since the sacrifice between holy-healing and holy-dps specs is relatively minor. For all the usual reasons though, even if you're holy-dps specced healing will still be your default all-purpose role.

 

Zantetsuken-EU

shadow is still most effective for leveling due to the first 11 talents. However, for maintained end game dps DISc/holy is the way for priests to go as mana regen + damage means we can keep going longer and longer (depending on gear but meh we're not all rogues).

 

Scorpio!

This is a horde guild forum you retard.

 

• Lurchington

Well, while EJ is obviously horde, I'd wager to say that there's a very large alliance presence here. Certainly enough to justify alliance specific strategies.

 

◊ Praetorian

EJ discussed having a shadowmage-type priest at one point. We concluded that it basically is not possible without JoW/BoW. Not enough mana regen to make it practical.

 

◊ Zoid

Wands proc'ing JoW is broken and should be fixed.

They'll probably never do it however since Alliance players would scream murder.