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04/19/06, 6:57 AM
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#1
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Von Kaiser
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I've been doing a lot of research on the subject of how effective offensive holy spec can be. I was not expecting to see such results. While a lot of people do not even touch smite, it can actually be just as powerful as shadow spells.
The spec is 31 disc, 20 holy. Also known as PI/holy spec.
The numbers:
Firstly, lets look at what holy spec can offer for an offensive priest.
All up, smite recieves 15% extra damage, -0.5 seconds off its cast rate and a whopping +10% of crit chance.
Combined with Power infusion, and BWL +dmg gear, this spec has the potential to match or even out-damage a fully fledged shadow priest in a pve environment. Why is this a big thing? Because this is a HEALING spec. Not only is it a healing spec, but the gear used to achieve this huge amount of dps, is also effective healing gear. Before delving into the reseach on some of these advantages, lets look at the damage side of things.
Fundamentally, its smite vs mindblast + mindflay
If the priest has little +dmg gear, shadow will out-dps holy spec. However, due to cast times and talent combinations, if the priest has very high +dmg gear, smite catches up quite rapidly.
Smite base cast speed is 2.5. Fully talented, it does an average of 470 damage. Talents also lower the cast speed to 2 seconds. This is where the massive advantage plays out. It is recieving 70% of +dmg items whilst being 2 second cast. Mind blast and mindflay are recieving 40% and 30% respectively.
Mindblast recieves approx 40% of the +dmg
SWP recieves 100%
Mindflay recieves 33ish%.
Smite recieves 70ish%
This, added with trinkets such as the ZG trinket and talisman and power infusion, will give smite an even bigger boost in damage.
Now for the other advantages: Smite is spammable, mind blast is not.
Smite doesn't produce anywhere as much aggro as mind blast.
Smite has higher dps than mindflay by a large margin.
Smite has a much higher crit rate than mind blast and mindflay simply cannot crit.
There is no holy resistance (i'm not sure if mobs have it, but players can't get it)
This spec allows one to have Power infusion, which increases all spell damage and healing by 20%, every 3 minutes. In a raid situation, this spell can be used in every third or fourth pull.
The absolute biggest advantage of this spec, is the fact that the priest is fundamentally, a fully spec'd healer with every critical healing talent. They are not stuck in shadowform. The priest would simply switch some gear over, and they would become as powerful a healer as any other spec'd priest. Shadow does not offer this.
The only advantage shadow spec can offer to a raid, is Shadow weaving for the warlocks, which will increase shadow damage by 15%.
To conclude, I personally, would rather spec into holy than shadow, as it offers a much broader range of utility and provides a very powerful amount of dps if needed. In my opinion, shadow's only advantage is direct PvP, such as dueling.
What are your thoughts?
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04/19/06, 7:21 AM
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#2
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Paladin
Twisting Nether (EU)
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sorry for saying it but don't you think suggesting a smite build in 1.10 is a bit obvious? if you remove the +15% shadow damage debuff and vamperic embrace in a pve setting then it's no longer smite vs mindflay+mindblast but smite vs frostbolts/shadowbolts/what not with the added benefit that you can do ok healing in your damage gear instead of doing damage if needed.
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04/19/06, 7:39 AM
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#3
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Glass Joe
Worgen Death Knight
Kargath (EU)
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I'm currently playing as a 32/19 specced priest in a engame raiding guild (AQ up to emps) and I have to say that I like it a lot.
I'm currently at about +320 passive damage in dps gear and I'm usually nuking during trashpulls.
* I'm typically just chaincasting smite with a few dots thrown in for good measure.
* With 4/5 silent resolve (yeah horde :) I have usually never any aggro problems with dps or healing
* mobs DO have holy resistance. Aside from the base misschance any nuke can have, I've seen numerous partial resists on holy spells, someting afaik only happens against resists in this damage type. It happens very rarely though.
* I'm not all that impressed by power infusion. sure a 1.7k smite crit is a nice thing to see as a priest, but it doesn't add a lot in total dps output, especially on trashpulls with rapidly changing targets etc. I however use it on mages during bossfights and they usually are really happy with it :)
* it is very powerful to be able to alternate between nukes and heals. stand back, nuke a bit but keep your group watched and heal as necessary. In ok dmg/heal gear you still have flashheals which don't totally suck.
* holy dmg spec is pretty lousy in duels. without ccs except fear, you hardly can nuke happily away at a disabled target like a mage, and with the spec above you miss out on many survivability talents which would help you instead. for me it usually goes back to playing like a holy priest in 1.9, dotting and outlasting my opponent. maybe I'm just bad at dueling :)
* the spec is pretty powerful for group pvp though since you can again, heal and still put out a 2s nuke with a decent punch.
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04/19/06, 9:10 AM
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#4
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Von Kaiser
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Priests can't do raid DPS because they have no mana recovery talent that is just for them.
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04/19/06, 9:17 AM
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#5
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stop kissing Gurgs ass 24/7
Raylen
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Xaviar,April 19th, 2006 @ 4:57AM
The absolute biggest advantage of this spec, is the fact that the priest is fundamentally, a fully spec'd healer with every critical healing talent.
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Really? Improved Healing/Spiritual Healing aren't critical talents anymore for end game raiding?
Also DrBats pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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04/19/06, 9:23 AM
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#6
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Raylen,April 19th, 2006 @ 8:17AM
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Originally Posted by Xaviar,April 19th, 2006 @ 4:57AM
The absolute biggest advantage of this spec, is the fact that the priest is fundamentally, a fully spec'd healer with every critical healing talent.
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Really? Improved Healing/Spiritual Healing aren't critical talents anymore for end game raiding?
Also DrBats pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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I wouldn't call Spiritual Healing critical, though it is definitely a plus. Improved healing on the other hand is very important, but some priests choose to spec into 10% mana instead (this build forces the decision). What I was trying to get at is that this spec is no where near as healer unfriendly as a 31 shadow spec.
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04/19/06, 9:36 AM
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#7
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stop kissing Gurgs ass 24/7
Raylen
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Xaviar,April 19th, 2006 @ 7:23AM
I wouldn't call Spiritual Healing critical, though it is definitely a plus. Improved healing on the other hand is very important, but some priests choose to spec into 10% mana instead (this build forces the decision). What I was trying to get at is that this spec is no where near as healer unfriendly as a 31 shadow spec.
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We've had this argument on our internal forums. I still feel that it is not a Priest's job at all to be doing DPS on a raid except for a few cases (visc and holy firing vek'lor :V: ). Now if the tier 3 set is +dmg/healing, I know where Blizzard is taking the Priest class. But for now, I'm sticking to my Spiritual Healing build.
And fuck wasting innervates on Priests just so they can keep spamming smite when a Mage could do more damage than a Priest. Not to mention, Mages are getting reviewed next and may become even more powerful.
If you only have this build because you want to see big numbers on trash pulls, roll a Mage and save your guild loot disputes.
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04/19/06, 9:49 AM
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#8
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Raylen,April 19th, 2006 @ 8:36AM
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Originally Posted by Xaviar,April 19th, 2006 @ 7:23AM
I wouldn't call Spiritual Healing critical, though it is definitely a plus. Improved healing on the other hand is very important, but some priests choose to spec into 10% mana instead (this build forces the decision). What I was trying to get at is that this spec is no where near as healer unfriendly as a 31 shadow spec.
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We've had this argument on our internal forums. I still feel that it is not a Priest's job at all to be doing DPS on a raid except for a few cases (visc and holy firing vek'lor :V: ). Now if the tier 3 set is +dmg/healing, I know where Blizzard is taking the Priest class. But for now, I'm sticking to my Spiritual Healing build.
And fuck wasting innervates on Priests just so they can keep spamming smite when a Mage could do more damage than a Priest. Not to mention, Mages are getting reviewed next and may become even more powerful.
If you only have this build because you want to see big numbers on trash pulls, roll a Mage and save your guild loot disputes.
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I guess it comes down to personal preference. The reason why I enjoy this build is because it allows me to heal extremely well (excluding spiritual healing) and also allows me to defend myself against other players, solo mobs and basically allow me to through the game on my own without relying on a party.
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04/19/06, 10:27 AM
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#9
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Glass Joe
Worgen Death Knight
Kargath (EU)
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Well i guess that came out a bit wrong. Of course a priest is no proper dps class for a 'hard' bossfight since the dps can't be sustained like a mage with evocate can, so I do stick to healing in these situations.
I'm also very aware that you can squeeze out a bit more and stronger healing from a 'pure' healing spec. However with the talent revamp a proper split between dmg and healing can be made where you can do both very well, depending on gear and situation.
For my very own case, I was stuck in a 'full' healing spec for more than half a year, it never hurts to try some fresh new stuff in playstyle and spec. It's not like you can't go back if you see that current (unbeaten) encounters require it.
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04/19/06, 10:47 AM
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#10
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Soda Popinski
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by tzu,April 19th, 2006 @ 6:27AM
For my very own case, I was stuck in a 'full' healing spec for more than half a year, it never hurts to try some fresh new stuff in playstyle and spec. It's not like you can't go back if you see that current (unbeaten) encounters require it.
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This is exactly how I felt.
I was a pure PvE healing spec for almost a year. What happened is I never played my priest in anything but raiding and felt like I lost something with him. When not raiding, I'd go off and play my alts. Hell, I have a 60 warrior in Tier 1 epics since I dragged her along to Molten Core to take passed loot in order that I could have something I could farm with.
1.10 gave me the holy damage/healing hybrid. I respec'd 31/20 last week for and I honestly felt a whole new life back into my priest. I can actually go farm for essences with him while queued for a background. I can farm Twlight Cultists for templar pieces without feeling like a gimp'd class anymore. I actually enjoy playing him outside of raiding again.
I still have Improved Healing. I'm only missing Spiritual Healing in my build, and I think that's a fine trade off between raid utility and being able to actually enjoy my character outside of the instance portal. Not too mention I get to toss Power Infusion on a mage or warlock during raiding. It seems to be becoming standard to hit one when the mob is around 80% or so and they go nuts.
If anything, 1.10 made my priest pretty much the character I always wanted him to be. A hybrid class who can hold his own.
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04/19/06, 11:29 AM
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#11
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Zoid,April 19th, 2006 @ 9:47AM
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Originally Posted by tzu,April 19th, 2006 @ 6:27AM
For my very own case, I was stuck in a 'full' healing spec for more than half a year, it never hurts to try some fresh new stuff in playstyle and spec. It's not like you can't go back if you see that current (unbeaten) encounters require it.
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This is exactly how I felt.
I was a pure PvE healing spec for almost a year. What happened is I never played my priest in anything but raiding and felt like I lost something with him. When not raiding, I'd go off and play my alts. Hell, I have a 60 warrior in Tier 1 epics since I dragged her along to Molten Core to take passed loot in order that I could have something I could farm with.
1.10 gave me the holy damage/healing hybrid. I respec'd 31/20 last week for and I honestly felt a whole new life back into my priest. I can actually go farm for essences with him while queued for a background. I can farm Twlight Cultists for templar pieces without feeling like a gimp'd class anymore. I actually enjoy playing him outside of raiding again.
I still have Improved Healing. I'm only missing Spiritual Healing in my build, and I think that's a fine trade off between raid utility and being able to actually enjoy my character outside of the instance portal. Not too mention I get to toss Power Infusion on a mage or warlock during raiding. It seems to be becoming standard to hit one when the mob is around 80% or so and they go nuts.
If anything, 1.10 made my priest pretty much the character I always wanted him to be. A hybrid class who can hold his own.
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Yeah, this was mainly my point. Pure healing isn't very fun outside of raiding, there are very limited things you can do. I was in the same situation, playing alts when not raiding. This build allows me to have excellent healing power whilst the ability to "play" the rest of the game.
I'm also having fun amassing +dmg gear :]
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04/19/06, 12:43 PM
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#12
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Paladin
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zoid,April 19th, 2006 @ 9:47AM
I was a pure PvE healing spec for almost a year. What happened is I never played my priest in anything but raiding and felt like I lost something with him. When not raiding, I'd go off and play my alts.
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that part of it I can relate to though and I think alot of people can. I just went another way I supose and made mine into a pvp healer instead:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/t...000000000000000
(don't laugh at lightwell I wanted to try it out and need a bit more time before trashing it, same with holy nova)
I like it because I get almost all the good pve talents (including 4/5 spiritual healing) and can still play a very fun role in group pvp.
oh well back on topic, if the op had put across his point like that I'm guessing more people would agree but instead it came across like an attempt to say that the best priest pve damage build would be holy which it isn't. the reasoning beeing that the +15% shadow damage debuff is the biggest reason to use a priest as a damage dealer in the first place.
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04/19/06, 2:34 PM
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#13
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King Hippo
Blindworld
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
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If you're looking for pve damage, disc is probably best, but if you're going for pvp in there too you need to look at survivability a bit, and I think the 15% mitigation from shadowform is something that will be severly missed by any disc/holy priest, along with the added benefits of the faster cooldown on fears, the pure strength of silence, and to a lesser extent the slowing ability of mindflay that is one of the few abilities that's it is totally worthless to even attempt to trinket out. The "utility" talents you lose as a shadow priest are far less powerful in a pvp environment.
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04/19/06, 2:56 PM
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#14
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Von Kaiser
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I'll expand on my original point: That priests can't do raid DPS because they have no mana recovery talent.
The problem with priests are that they have very attractive raid talents, be them the stacking shadow vulnerability talent to vampiric embrace.
A shadow priest is the way to go for raid DPS, if you so choose. why? Because in a main tank's group, the healing done by vampiric embrace is an excellent compliment to the damage that the priest does.
why is a priest good in shadow for raids?
1) You don't need +hit gear. You have a talent that makes your +hit% as high or higher than any mage, any warlock, any warrior. Shadow Focus is ridiculous.
2) since you don't need +hit gear, you can concentrate on +damage +crit gear. Since this is the case, and the fact that the majority of your damage comes from dot and channel damage, your efficiency of +damage gear is extremely high.
3) The increase that you see in your damage with shadow weaving also increases the damage that warlocks can output, increasing their damage / mana ratio, and increasing the speed at which good warlocks can down the tougher mobs in the game.
4) You are a master of your aggro. A priest not only has subtlety in their spells, but also has an aggro drop in fade. stop DPS, fade, and allow the tank to regain aggro. The beauty of fade is that it is UNRESISTABLE. A mob will ALWAYS bounce back to the MT when a priest pulls aggro.
5) Vampiric Embrace. With the very best +shadow and +damage gear that a priest can get, he can pull out over 500DPS constant (on paper, so probably a bit lower.), with vamp embrace up that's 125 health per second to everyone in that priest's party, which should include the main tank. The health per second takes some of the strain off of your other healers, as they don't need to constantly be casting quicker heals, as the HoTs they cast + vampiric embrace is enough to allow healers to all use slower, mana efficient spells.
Sounds pretty sweet, doesn't it?
but in practice, a shadow priest in 1.9 had a mana pool that lasted roughly 5 minutes. In 1.10 after the priest changes, mental strength and mental agility for the most part are out of range of the big damage builds. this means that your instant casts (90% of the shadow spells you cast) cost more and yet you're crippled by a smaller(!) mana pool than before. The inclusion of meditation into most shadow builds is GREAT for pvp, but in pve it doesn't add much at all to the priest's longivity.
How does this compare to a heavy disc build?
A heavy disc build priest can still heal adequately. They might not have the great talents of Spiritual guildance or Spiritual Healing, but they can still cast healing spells.
Power Infusion is great fun.
Divine Spirit!
HUGE CRITS OMG.
well, to be honest, a heavy disc build with the maximum amount of +damage gear needs a lot of +hit gear too, unlike shadow. this means that you need to sac crit and +damage to make up the difference.
Also, those big crits pull more aggro, and with no sub talent even possible (Most people don't take the sub talent anyway, but I would consider it if I had crazy gear.) the threat of pulling aggro becomes present. Fade works once, but when you blow Med and PI to hit with a 2200 HF you're going to get it right back.
Moderation would be the name of the game for a heavy disc priest, whereas a shadow priest can constantly cast.
A heavy disc priest does less damage than a warlock or mage, and doesn't have a talent like vampiric embrace or shadow weaving to help offset the loss of a healer.
Mental agility does almost nothing for a heavy disc priest, as most of their damage comes from channeled spells.
Mental strength is only a temporary fix, much like +22 int.
and finally:
Neither build has a comparable talent to Evocation, Spirit Tap, or Dark Pact. this means that druids will be blowing innervates on a priest to keep their mana up, which adds almost nothing to a raid, when that same priest could be healing and keeping a mage, which chances are they'll do more damage next patch, up and alive to continue a fight.
while the oracle set points towards the implementation of a heavy disc build in raiding, with it's resistance lowering and +damage, Blizzard at this time didn't seem to follow through and give the priests the chance at a mana recovery talent, which cripples raid dps priests.
Maybe sometime in the future a priest will be able to do raid DPS, but for today heavy disc and heavy shadow builds are restricted to short term pvp encounters and molten core.
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04/19/06, 3:13 PM
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#15
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stop kissing Gurgs ass 24/7
Raylen
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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^^^ Nice post, Bats
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Originally Posted by blindworld,April 19th, 2006 @ 12:34PM
The "utility" talents you lose as a shadow priest are far less powerful in a pvp environment.
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So true, I just wish EJ groups could get a game and not have to sit in the queue for so damned long. I was in one recent game with some EJ consisting of two druids, three priests including myself, two shamans, a warrior and maybe someone else, I forget. We had a few pubbies but for the most part it was us. It wasn't the best Alliance but a few of them had BWL items. We won pretty easily but they made it slow because of the druid and rogues that would try to sneak out with the flag.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classe...000000000000000
Here is my lolspiritual healing build. I hope to get the Scarab Brooch then pop Inner Focus, Hibernation Crystal, Brooch and then PoH in PVP and hope for some Crits. Also 8/8 Trans is one of, if not, the best pve/pvp set bonus if you have a lot of +healing. I know I can get my Renews up to 470 and my Gheal Renews to 301 per tick. MSes all over the place won't help my healing but the extra 150 per tick definitely does. Plus, for some reason, Alliance Priests are dumb and don't dispel. Oh right, we have Shamans to Purge, my bad :V:
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