I've heard talk that Hemo is a pretty solid build. It adds a lot of raid PvE dps, and with many of the subtetly talents it can be good in PvP.

I know the 20/31 or 21/30 combat builds and the dagger backstab builds. I'm currently a 21/30 (mistake, but too cheap to respec for adren rush) sword rogue. But, I've gotten a little tired of the build, especially with Blizzard giving better itemization to dagger rogues (Backstab ranks, +Dagger, more/better daggers).

Anyways, I've been trying to figure out the optimal hemo build to maximize personal dps in between hemo strikes. What I can't figure out, is if it's better to go some kind of SnD daggers/backstab build or a SnD sword/SS build.

On one hand, my thinking is that the daggers hit faster which benefit from the hemo debuff. It's also relatively easy to get the main backstab/ambush talents with a hemo build. On the other hand going for high CP generation with SS and Ruthlessness/Relentless strikes would equal a lot of free finishers and extra energy.


I dunno, I just got so used to knowing the numbers for a sword combat build, that seeing the completely different playstyle and new set of talents to work with, I'm too lazy to do all the math.

It seems like both ways, you end up being counter productive with your talents. Taking initiative/opportunity (which you basically have to for hemo) for high CP generation requires that you use daggers and ambush as cheap shot doesn't work on the majority of raid mobs. That means going for backstab, which is slow CPs.

Going sword, you lose out on maxing DW spec or the relentless strikes/ruthlessness combo, which I've always seen as paramount to that style.

Any other rogue gurus have input on this build and the optimum playstyle?

The point of a Hemo build is to use hemo, not to spend a bunch of talent points to continue to use inferior abilities.

I think you misunderstood what I was asking, but ok. What do you do with the combo points your building then?

I should add that I didn't realize how close hemo was to SS in energy per damage, so I get what you were trying to say. I'm still not sure which talents are most worthwhile to complement hemo though.

Slice and Dice first, then Rupture. I used it for an AQ40 clear and fell from first or competing for first to 5th-10th depending on the fight. That was using equivalent ilvl weapons(my normal raid spec is combat dagger).

It's a fun spec for PvP, but it's not a raid spec. If you're trying to make it raidworthy, 3/3imp. snd and 3/3imp. rupture are about all you can really do. You'll want to use as big and slow a sword as you can to abuse the fact that hemo isn't normalized.

Things other than backstab or SS? And definatly not fast weapons (such as daggers) with an attack that is only good with slow weapons?

Between Hemos, you use SnD, Evis, and more Hemos. Not attacks which are less energy efficient.

OH Dagger can be good, though, due to that you can't get weapon specs with Hemo.

It's not just close. With a slow weapon, the fact that Hemo isn't normalized means that it can deal more damage than a SS, for less energy.

I wasn't sure if you might gain enough in white damage from the hemo debuff to offset the lost Hemo damage from using a high dmg weapon. But, I see now that was retarded, did not know hemo wasn't normalized.

Wodin, when you say it's not raid worthy, do you mean overall or for the specific rogue. I fully understand that I won't be topping the damage meters unless I've got a significant gear advantage on others. But, have you attempted to calculuate the difference between your lower position, and the extra damage done by the raid from the debuff? That is, if you added the extra damage to your own total, do you think it would come close to the same spot?


So is the 'normal' hemo build something like 22/3/26 or 21/3/27 then

The hemo debuff does less than a normally-geared priest putting on SW:P if it's completely consumed before you reapply it. It's not a significant factor, because you will be reapplying it before it's consumed.

Normal Hemo is 21/3/27. It's a great spec for pvp and a ton of fun. You can butcher people in duels and in world pvp, and aren't bad in the battlegrounds. But it's not a raid spec. :/

I was under the impression that hemo added to base damage, like a +5 dmg enchant on a weapon, or the ZHM. If you have 5+ rogues attacking a mob affected by hemo, isn't that significantly more than a single SWP? Or am I mistaken about the way hemo works?

On a PvE server, so only care about the BGs in terms of PvP. You say it's OK in the BG's, is there a better BG spec in your opinion?

edit: Digo: I always thought the 'up to 7' may mean it's like the fiery enchant in that it's a flat + per attack. That is, it can add 1-7 dmg per attack.

Assuming the +7 isn't multiplied by BS (as I've never been able to find an answer on that), you'll use Hemo about once every 4 seconds (only 35 energy, but you also do other things). 30*7/4 = 52.5 max dps from Hemo, assuming all of the charges are used up.

In my healing gear, SW:P is 54 dps pre-CoS.

At best, the hemo debuff adds 210 damage. That's if every charge gets used up by your raid before you reapply it, which assumes that what you're targetting gets hit 30 times about every 3.5 seconds.

Go do a raid, turn on damagemeters and make sure it's set to parse your events. Once you're done, hold control over your bar to see how many times you landed with hemo, and then multiply that by 210, and then add that to your total damage score. If at that point your damage score is actually competitive with the top rogue, then maybe just maybe it's worthwhile for raid dps.

But chances are even if you add 210 to every time you use hemo you still won't compete with the top rogue, especially when there will be lots of times where you aren't getting the full 210 from the debuff each time.