Another Rogue Needing Assistance

Apocalypse · 04/27/06, 4:42 PM

I am going to start out thanking Osiris and Brogetta for their guides and the assistance that they have provided me. I do have a question though. I've played with many damage calculators dreaming of getting a Perditions and CHT or a AQ Ripper and a CTS, but I yearn to get a better understanding where these answers come from.

I mean I love being able to plug in my weapons, talents, and AP and just hit submit and get my answers. I just want to know how those answers are obtained. I mean when I’ve been told by a multitude of people that the best dagger is Perditions I believe them but at some point I want to ask why. People tell me well its so great because it has insane max and min damage. Again I understand that, but how does the min and max damage affect Ambush, SS, BS and such. What does weapon normalization mean? Why use a fast weapon off hand for poison procs if you have a shaman?

Sorry if my relentless ranting and confusion annoy you? I guess in closing I am asking for some formulas with the variables defined in noob terms. I believe that I’ve come a long way by reading all the info out there about rogues but I want to be able to answer my guilds rogues when they ask me why this weapon is better than another or why +15agi is better than crusader and such. I can always direct them to a site to answer their question but I find understanding the concept is more valuable then just knowing the answer.

subscience · 04/27/06, 4:59 PM

The reason that Ambush, SS, and BS are called "instants" is because they basically take your next swing, add some kind of damage modifier, and forces the swing instantly. Without getting into the modifiers, slower weapons benefit more from "instants" because you're compacting a lot more damage into that instant than a faster one. For example, a 2.0s 100 DPS 1H will hit for 200. A 1.0s 100 DPS 1H will hit for 100. If you had the choice between the two and were allowed to get in a free swing whenever you pressed a key, which would you take? Obviously the 2.0s 100 DPS one.

Weapon normalization deals with the AP bonus you get on these instant swings. Before normalization, your added AP bonus was [AP / 14] * weaponSpeed. This meant slower weapons got even more benefit since not only do they hit harder naturally with an instant attack, but also get a higher multiplier for the AP bonus. However, with a not-so-recent patch, the weaponSpeed variable for bonus AP calculations was changed to a constant value. I don't remember the values off the top of my head, but they differ for 1H daggers/fists, 1H swords/maces, and 2Hs. :(

Even with the normalization change, slower weapons will still hit harder due to the higher damage range (when comparing to an equal DPS weapon that is quicker).

I can't answer the 3rd question, but poisons will proc off of misses and, as far as I know, there isn't a controlled PPM with poisons.

Oh, and hi2u large avatar.

chalon · 04/27/06, 6:27 PM

Perdition's is not the best main hand dagger anymore :P.

Blessed Qiraji Pugio is better (even though it's faster, the stats and 60 DPS makes up for it), and Death's Sting is A LOT better.

As for where all the formulas come from, well, a good place to start would be http://www.wowwiki.com . They at least provide the basis for a lot of the basic combat formulas. Beyond that, a guildmate and I are working on a super complex Damage calculator spreadsheet for Combat Daggers, and part of the plan is to have a page in the spreadsheet which explains the main formulas use (although, who knows the documentation may never actually get written :P). The ultimate goal if it will be to provide a simple interface for you to pick ALL your gear, your weapons, your enchants, and whatever buffs you may have, and it will calculate the theoretical sustained DPS, which should help a lot with gear comparisons.

EJforumsaccount · 04/27/06, 9:37 PM

There are people all over the place main handing Perdition and offhanding Pugio. :( Why would you MH Perd when you can MH Pugio and offhand something with stats? Even better, dual wield them. :laugh:

• Wodin · 04/27/06, 9:41 PM

For me it's +skill. When I did the calculations the first time I forgot about Opportunity, so I had Pugio/Perditions being better. Technically Perdition's/Pugio is better by .025DPS. Oh noes.

chalon · 04/27/06, 10:04 PM

With 10 dagger skill and my gear setup...

Perdition's/Pugio is 486 unbuffed, 621 normal raid buffed.

Pugio/DoVS is 487 unbuffed, 624 buffed.

And the higher your buffs, the more the 2nd combo pulls away :P.

Death's Sting/Pugio and dropping my Mugger's for the new C'Thun belt gives you 518 and 652 :ph34r:.

Zellyn · 04/27/06, 11:57 PM

If no one minds particularly, I'd like to bring up the WF vs. GoA argument once more.

I continue to run into issues with getting Windfury instead of Grace of Air. In fact, last week I encountered something that left me absolutely stupefied.

Me: Give us windfury, if for no other reason than that the warrior (Arms with a Halberd of Smiting) needs it for rage generation.
Warrior: I don't care, it's not like I'm tanking.

I didn't screenshot it, nor did I say anything. I think part of me died inside. My warrior is level 16 and I couldn't believe I had just read that.

Anyways, I recall Kalman doing a big write up on how Windfury beats out GoA, but I can't find it any of the old rogue threads, and I figure I'll at least try to beat these people down with math, if logic isn't working.

Kalman · 04/28/06, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Zellyn,April 27th, 2006 @ 10:57PM

If no one minds particularly, I'd like to bring up the WF vs. GoA argument once more.

I continue to run into issues with getting Windfury instead of Grace of Air. In fact, last week I encountered something that left me absolutely stupefied.

Me: Give us windfury, if for no other reason than that the warrior (Arms with a Halberd of Smiting) needs it for rage generation.
Warrior: I don't care, it's not like I'm tanking.

I didn't screenshot it, nor did I say anything. I think part of me died inside. My warrior is level 16 and I couldn't believe I had just read that.

Anyways, I recall Kalman doing a big write up on how Windfury beats out GoA, but I can't find it any of the old rogue threads, and I figure I'll at least try to beat these people down with math, if logic isn't working.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?s...opic=6225&st=25

Read the whole thread, I correct myself a few times, but the end result should be correct.

Also, you're welcome. :)

Zellyn · 04/28/06, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman,April 27th, 2006 @ 11:39PM

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?s...opic=6225&st=25

Read the whole thread, I correct myself a few times, but the end result should be correct.

Also, you're welcome. :)

Ah, that would explain it. An off shoot of the discussion about totems. Rogues are the new druids on these forums, I guess; turning every thread into shit about rogues.

Thanks.

Kalman · 04/28/06, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Zellyn,April 27th, 2006 @ 11:52PM

Originally Posted by Kalman,April 27th, 2006 @ 11:39PM

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index.php?s...opic=6225&st=25

Read the whole thread, I correct myself a few times, but the end result should be correct.

Also, you're welcome. :)

Ah, that would explain it. An off shoot of the discussion about totems. Rogues are the new druids on these forums, I guess; turning every thread into shit about rogues.

Thanks.

Well, technically it *was* a discussion about totems.

Kir · 04/30/06, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by subscience,April 27th, 2006 @ 3:59PM

The reason that Ambush, SS, and BS are called "instants" is because they basically take your next swing, add some kind of damage modifier, and forces the swing instantly. Without getting into the modifiers, slower weapons benefit more from "instants" because you're compacting a lot more damage into that instant than a faster one. For example, a 2.0s 100 DPS 1H will hit for 200. A 1.0s 100 DPS 1H will hit for 100. If you had the choice between the two and were allowed to get in a free swing whenever you pressed a key, which would you take? Obviously the 2.0s 100 DPS one.

Uhh.. wait. Rogue instants actually reset the autoattack timer?
I thought we just used slower weapons because they had higher base dmg, so the instants were doing more damage (the frequency of their use being a constant based on energy regen instead of weapon spd).

If they actually take up the next swing and reset the timer for the next auto-attack, then why isn't there a mod that makes it easier to time SS to right after your mainhand swings. :-/ That's a lot of potential DPS if you could be doing if you do it the moment after your mainhand swings.

Also, if it is true, and you weren't just using it as an illustrative example, I feel like a moron. I figured I'd already know about something that big.

Kalman · 04/30/06, 11:13 AM

Rogue instants don't reset the autoattack timer.

Kir · 04/30/06, 11:33 AM

awesome.

Though my moron status remains unchanged. :unsure:

subscience · 05/01/06, 10:16 AM

Yea, sorry for the mis-wording. I couldn't think of another analogy.

Vhal · 05/01/06, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Zellyn,April 27th, 2006 @ 10:57PM

If no one minds particularly, I'd like to bring up the WF vs. GoA argument once more.

I continue to run into issues with getting Windfury instead of Grace of Air. In fact, last week I encountered something that left me absolutely stupefied.

Simple solution: Have your shaman twist the totems so you get both.