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Old 05/01/06, 9:18 PM   #1
tenarius
Piston Honda
 
Rogue
 
Simple question (because the other combat mechanics thread fell off the world) - what's the innate threat reduction for shaman/paladins? Is it the same for both? I do not remember the numbers offhand, but hopefully someone else has them stored away in the canyons of your mind.

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Old 05/01/06, 9:36 PM   #2
Gann1
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Ravenholdt
Only paladins have the threat reduction. It was actually intended as a nerf, so they couldn't tank by only healing themselves.

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Old 05/01/06, 10:40 PM   #3
newladin
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
<UF>
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Gann1,May 1st, 2006 @ 8:36PM
Only paladins have the threat reduction. It was actually intended as a nerf, so they couldn't tank by only healing themselves.
:(

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Old 05/01/06, 11:57 PM   #4
Shabadu
ONLY ONE
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by newladin,May 1st, 2006 @ 10:40PM
Originally Posted by Gann1,May 1st, 2006 @ 8:36PM
Only paladins have the threat reduction. It was actually intended as a nerf, so they couldn't tank by only healing themselves.
:(
Earthshock, heal self is all I do to tank really.

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Old 05/02/06, 12:00 AM   #5
Anglakel
Don Flamenco
 
Murloc Warrior
 
<LoH>
Mal'Ganis
I'm pretty sure Anglakel is the worst tank on mal'ganis so i'm glad i can't heal myself to hold agro because its just bad. I rolled a warrior for that job.

http://www.ctprofiles.net/1689539

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Old 05/02/06, 3:51 AM   #6
CrazyGamer
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Shaman heals give 0.5 threat per point healed (basic healing threat).
I think paladin heals give 0.375 threat per point healed (25% innate reduction).

The reasoning for this is that paladin is a hybrid tank while shaman is not. Paladins AOE tanking through healing was overpowered in beta, in much the same way that using paladin as an aggro-pole on phase 1 Nef (when BoW gave threat) was very effective.

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Old 05/02/06, 4:27 AM   #7
tenarius
Piston Honda
 
Rogue
 
Guess I remembered wrong - thanks guys!

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Old 05/02/06, 6:44 AM   #8
Judia
Banned
 
Murloc Paladin
 
Grim Batol(EU)
Paladin heals used to be around 25% threat of all other healing classes.
It was bumped up to 75% in 1.9 riht at the time Caydiem told us we were designed to have low threat heals to make us better healers.

GG no class rep, now where is my untalented BoK, SoComm and repentance please ?

Judia

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Old 05/02/06, 7:04 AM   #9
Maledict
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Mage
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 5:44AM
Paladin heals used to be around 25% threat of all other healing classes.
It was bumped up to 75% in 1.9 riht at the time Caydiem told us we were designed to have low threat heals to make us better healers.

GG no class rep, now where is my untalented BoK, SoComm and repentance please ?

Judia

Whilst Blessing of Kings is a definite need if your an alliance raider, I wouldn't class it like Evocation or Tactical Mastery - you only need 1 paladin with it, after all. And SoCommand is simply another damage talent, its not a make or break ability.
Like Rogues, I don't think Paladins actually have any "must have " talents. Sure, there are plenty of powerful potions, and certain builds are much better at raiding than others, but there are none that are required to simply make the class function.

And no class has a "rep" - this isn't EQ, and if you look you'll find most classes have had various community reps post on their forums over the past 12 months in some form or another.


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Old 05/02/06, 7:43 AM   #10
Judia
Banned
 
Murloc Paladin
 
Grim Batol(EU)
Originally Posted by Maledict,May 2nd, 2006 @ 6:04AM
Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 5:44AM
Paladin heals used to be around 25% threat of all other healing classes.
It was bumped up to 75% in 1.9 riht at the time Caydiem told us we were designed to have low threat heals to make us better healers.

GG no class rep, now where is my untalented BoK, SoComm and repentance please ?

Judia

Whilst Blessing of Kings is a definite need if your an alliance raider, I wouldn't class it like Evocation or Tactical Mastery - you only need 1 paladin with it, after all. And SoCommand is simply another damage talent, its not a make or break ability.
Like Rogues, I don't think Paladins actually have any "must have " talents. Sure, there are plenty of powerful potions, and certain builds are much better at raiding than others, but there are none that are required to simply make the class function.

And no class has a "rep" - this isn't EQ, and if you look you'll find most classes have had various community reps post on their forums over the past 12 months in some form or another.
This says more about the state of paladin talents.

Paladin talents have always been compelte and utter trash. The last reasonable survey showed that less than 10% of all paladins have ANY 31 point talent. Simply put all the paladin talents are either sufficiently bad, or low in the talent tree they made no difference. Further there are only a very very few talents that impact our raiding ability, BoK, Holy power, Illumination. Thats pretty much every raid useful talent available to a paladin. And holy power would never be demanded by any reasonable raid. The running joke about paladins has always been the power of the 0/0/0 talent build because our talents are that unimportant. Paladins dont even have a choice of play style unlike every other class.

The reason paladins werent forced to spec one tree the same way druids were was because we didnt have a talent as good as innervate. Give paladins innervate as 31point protection and see how many guilds start demanding it.

Furhter, Caydiem was through and through a druid. No offence, but she clearly had a biased view of class balance which could be seen time and time again in her forum posts. She was defiantely "pro druid", the question isnt wether you had a CM "onside" but how much influence she had. Now given that she explicitly told the paladins that she couldnt actually answer any of the Dev questions in their meetiing for the paladin patch, nor justify any of the player sugestions because of her lack of experience in playing the class, Id say that the druid review is at least in part due to having Caydiem play a druid. Even if it was only that she could given much clearer and better reasoned feedback to the Devs.

Judia

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Old 05/02/06, 7:47 AM   #11
Drauk
Bald Bull
 
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Drauk
Human Mage
 
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Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 6:43AM
The last reasonable survey showed that less than 10% of all paladins have ANY 31 point talent.
Link/source ?

Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
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Old 05/02/06, 8:31 AM   #12
Chupa
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 4:44AM
Paladin heals used to be around 25% threat of all other healing classes.
It was bumped up to 75% in 1.9 riht at the time Caydiem told us we were designed to have low threat heals to make us better healers.

GG no class rep, now where is my untalented BoK, SoComm and repentance please ?

Judia
Wow, you really like to whine vociferously.

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Old 05/02/06, 8:43 AM   #13
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 6:44AM
Paladin heals used to be around 25% threat of all other healing classes.
It was bumped up to 75% in 1.9 riht at the time Caydiem told us we were designed to have low threat heals to make us better healers.

GG no class rep, now where is my untalented BoK, SoComm and repentance please ?

Judia
The official forums are this way. Also, don't sign your posts. We know your name.

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Old 05/02/06, 9:06 AM   #14
Judia
Banned
 
Murloc Paladin
 
Grim Batol(EU)
Th numbers were tested and posted in the US forums, however the post itself is pretty much lost. There was a very significant threat increase on paladin healing threat during the 1.9 patch, as a number of paladins reported pulling aggro and aggro issues on a large number of encounters where previous experience had shown none.

Caydiem did post saying paladins were designed to have low threat heals to make them better heals. Again the post is probably lost to the depths of Blizzards forums, but it was posted in blue and upset quite a few paladins who remebered being told the nerf was to stop us heal-tanking.

Im not sure which of the above points warrented being redirected to the official forums. I certainly found it infuriating to not only to see a blue post an untruth, but it was at a time where the increased the threat on our heals without putting it in the patch notes.

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Old 05/02/06, 9:13 AM   #15
Judia
Banned
 
Murloc Paladin
 
Grim Batol(EU)
Originally Posted by Drauk,May 2nd, 2006 @ 6:47AM
Originally Posted by Judia,May 2nd, 2006 @ 6:43AM
The last reasonable survey showed that less than 10% of all paladins have ANY 31 point talent.
Link/source ?
Unfortunately, while it was a great post, it is lost somewhere in the bowls of Blizzards archieves.

A US paladin started a forum post in which paladins posted their talent specs and to which around 125 people replied. Of those the most interesting results were:
1) The number of people specing 31 points into any talent tree was incredably low
2) There was an exceptionally large number of different spec (something like 40), indicating a lack of clearly powerful/useful talents which were popular enough to cause people to spec fo them.
3) Holy was the most popular talent tree, then retribution. A very small percentile speced to protection, and almost noone had Holy shield.

If someone could dig this post out Id leove to read it again. Raised some great points.

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