Mage talent preview - Page 11

saramin · 05/05/06, 6:58 AM

As was stated earlier in the thread, nobody in endgame raiding guilds has any idea how mage dps scales with hunters/locks as it's been about 6 months since they were last able to go all-out for more than 10 seconds before a horribly unhealthy scrunch of bones ended that particular experiment. Adding a higher coefficient for +dmg gear is a bit premature.

Random thought at 3am: "Goomba" is the funniest word of recent invention. Seriously, say it aloud three times with enthusiasm and try to keep from chortling gleefully to yourself.

Goggles · 05/05/06, 6:58 AM

It would be imba for PvP and make no difference in PvE as threat is the limiter there not damage.

Out of interest as I'm an uninformed mage who knows very little about some other classes: Do warlocks suffer from the same aggro issues as mages? What methods do they have to reduce/clear aggro?

Drauk · 05/05/06, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by Goggles,May 5th, 2006 @ 5:01AM

Out of interest as I'm an uninformed mage who knows very little about some other classes: Do warlocks suffer from the same aggro issues as mages? What methods do they have to reduce/clear aggro?

1) Speccing into MD and having imp out is -20% agrro
2) Full nemesis is -20% agrro on destruction spells

norg · 05/05/06, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by Goggles,May 5th, 2006 @ 4:58AM

It would be imba for PvP and make no difference in PvE as threat is the limiter there not damage.

Out of interest as I'm an uninformed mage who knows very little about some other classes: Do warlocks suffer from the same aggro issues as mages? What methods do they have to reduce/clear aggro?

Master Demonologist bonus for your imp is -20% threat. 8/8 Nemesis bonus.

Um.

EDIT: beaten

Goggles · 05/05/06, 7:12 AM

Not exactly easy for them either. Having to spec 30 points in 1 tree for 20% reduction (and also having to take 5 points in Unholy Power which looks like a very poor talent). 8/8 Nemesis doesn't grow on trees either (well actually it might given how much more it seems to drop than Netherwind! Grrr!).

arch · 05/05/06, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by Drauk,May 5th, 2006 @ 3:31AM

Originally Posted by arch,May 4th, 2006 @ 5:17PM

Managing threat is and will always be a part of our class. It's our challenge in PvE, and I dont mind it at all.

Managing threat is very big words for standing still and doing nothing.

If that's how you see it.... There are other ways of doing it though.

As was stated earlier in the thread, nobody in endgame raiding guilds has any idea how mage dps scales with hunters/locks as it's been about 6 months since they were last able to go all-out for more than 10 seconds before a horribly unhealthy scrunch of bones ended that particular experiment. Adding a higher coefficient for +dmg gear is a bit premature.

And wtf? You´re alliance just like me and you´re saying that there is no fight where we can go all out? There are plenty of fights to go all out as alliance at least, I do it on a daily basis.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by arch,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:01AM

If that's how you see it.... There are other ways of doing it though.

Could you please enligthen us than ?

aarkh · 05/05/06, 9:30 AM

I suppose he's referring to using AM, lower rank spells to get more use out of 3p NW, running in to get wing buffets and the like on certain mobs and such.

I'll reserve judgement until I see the full changes and shaman changes also, but if they're not going to give some alternative method of reducing threat, this is pretty harsh for horde mages.

Maledict · 05/05/06, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Twid,May 4th, 2006 @ 6:58PM

What do you mages think is going to be the new optimum raiding spec?

Personally the mana efficiency of a Master of Elements/Winter's Chill build is sickening, and with a 5 enigma, 3 netherwind, plus some of the more crit oriented +dmg items, I have a feeling mages will be starting to approach rogue/warrior sustained dps. As a warlock, I feel the pain of zero dps life tapping in any fight over 45 seconds.

Given 203 mana frost bolts from Frost Channeling alone, mages can cast continuously for almost a minute and a half with an 8k mana pool.

Now include the crit mana return, and increased crit chance from winter's chill being up there all the time.

I'm getting jealous.

Anyone up for doing the math to see if there is a rank of frostbolt castable that can realistically keep a mage casting until evocation is cool again?

Just to reply to this - I'm a horde mage, and to be honest I don't see a huge need for more mana efficiency beyond what we already have. (35 frost 16 arcane).

If I ever start running low on mana, I switch to rank 4 / 5 frostbolt, cast AM when clearcasting comes up, and then pop a potion or mana gem when they are available and then go back to rank 11 frostbolts.

Also, the efficiency gain from Master of Elements + Winters Chill is still vastly inferior to Clearcasting. You would need a 30% crit rate to achieve the 10% mana efficiency of clearcasting...

---

On the plus side, has anyone noticed how big the Blizzard change was?

Previously, you have to spend 11 talent points to get a 75% slow that lasted for 4.5 seconds. This now costs only 3 talent points. Plus...
Under the new tree at wowhead, you spend 6 points to get a 85% slow that lasts for 7.5 seconds. If that's correct, a fully improved blizzard is simply unbelieveably good for AEing, as reducing anything to a 15% movement speed is far beyond any other snare effect in the game.

♦ Praetorian · 05/05/06, 9:31 AM

Personally I'd always harbored the hope that they'd reintroduce invisibility as a hybrid PvP tool and a unique aggro control mechanic for PvE. I'd imagined something that didn't take you out of combat, broke when you took any offensive action, but gradually made your aggro decay more the longer you remained invisible.

I think the game needs more forms of active aggro control that are not passive modifiers and are not complete resets like feign or vanish. It'd add some more skill into DPSing on aggro-sensitive fights.

pkScary · 05/05/06, 9:32 AM

Spamming rank 1 frostbolt and generating next to no threat (3 piece NW) while getting mana from judged mobs is decent, but not a whole lot better than not casting at all.

Edit - I forgot to add taking mob deaggros without getting owned.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by pkScary,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:32AM

Spamming rank 1 frostbolt and generating next to no threat (3 piece NW) while getting mana from judged mobs is decent, but not a whole lot better than not casting at all.

Im sorry, but with my gear i deal more than 100 damage with rank 1 frostbolt. What should i do - remove weapon and offhand ?

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by aarkh,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:30AM

running in to get wing buffets and the like on certain mobs and such.

Taking wing buffets doesn't matter. I cant overagrro on Firemaw due to a nature of the fight, and Ebonroc and Flamegor is non-issue really.

I can't remember any other bosses having an aoe deagrro.

♦ Praetorian · 05/05/06, 9:40 AM

Any knockback has a deaggro component. If you're really careful about positioning, for example, you can intentionally eat Onyxia Tail Sweeps to reduce your aggro.

• frmorrison · 05/05/06, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:31AM

I think the game needs more forms of active aggro control that are not passive modifiers and are not complete resets like feign or vanish. It'd add some more skill into DPSing on aggro-sensitive fights.

True, with Rogue/Hunter having a aggro wipe, it is very easy to manage dps.

It would be nice to have an active way class-based way to manage aggro (there are two -aggro trinkets though, but one is worthless).

I don't see Blizzard devs doing that though.

Edit: Here is a funny picture http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1516/ma...ed9qk5qb4et.jpg

pkScary · 05/05/06, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Drauk,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:34AM

Im sorry, but with my gear i deal more than 100 damage with rank 1 frostbolt. What should i do - remove weapon and offhand ?

So do I. Hence the "next to no". We don't have a way to reduce our aggro, trinkets excluded.

Even if your Rank 1 Frostbolts did less than 100, I doubt your threat can actually go negative. Although I do think at some point this was true.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:40AM

Any knockback has a deaggro component. If you're really careful about positioning, for example, you can intentionally eat Onyxia Tail Sweeps to reduce your aggro.

Broodlord blastwave comes to mind. It certaily has knockback, but the general consensus is that it isn't deagrro.

♦ Praetorian · 05/05/06, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison,May 5th, 2006 @ 8:41AM

It would be nice to have an active way class-based way to manage aggro (there are two -aggro trinkets though, but one is worthless).

I don't see Blizzard devs doing that though.

I don't understand why though. These classes already do less damage than rogues; why limit them further. Blizzard has to understand that standing around for the entire remainder of a fight because you've reached an aggro plateau is not fun. I'm not sure it'd be unbalancing at all. Right now on a fight like Ouro (or Broodlord back when he was hard and had a 100% deaggro) I'm better off bringing hunters over mages/locks, by FAR, and that's annoying as a raid leader and annoying to the players who feel like they're dead weight.

Give mages a form of invisibility that gradually ticks away their aggro at anything they're in combat with, but breaks as soon as they try to take any offensive action or otherwise cast a spell. Give warlocks a new curse (Curse of Abatement? Curse of Lethe? I don't know.) that fills a warlock's curse slot and gradually ticks away aggro on that one particular target. It's no feign death, but it'd be something.

Maledict · 05/05/06, 9:51 AM

I guess it must come from being in a slightler more casual, less skilled PvE guild, but on nay fight in BWL or AQ40 I find myself having to throttle back.

Even if the mob can be taunted, or has no de-aggro component, if *anything* goes wrong with the main tank, you can guarantee it's a mage he's going for next. The offtanks don't have enough rage to hold aggro over a mage dealing consisitant damage, and whilst the rogues and the hunters wil have dealt *more* damage than me, their aggro tools means they are ignored.

And having a BWL / AQ40 mob run half way across the raid generally means wipe in those environments.

That's what annoys me - as has been posted, sitting back and not actually casting or using a spell I got when I was level 20 to deal sub par damage isn't fun for your class. Active aggro controls are what the dps classes need, otherwise your just restricting your gear upgrades and spell upgrades. Hunters and rogues deal equal or better damage than me on single targets anyway without considering aggro control - what's the issue with giving it to mages?
It's like they are asking us to make a trade off between massive damage and aggro - but then forgot to give us the massive damage?

Not casting simply isn't an option in woW, this isn't EQ and shouldn't hold to it...

• frmorrison · 05/05/06, 9:51 AM

Q u o t e:
Gives you a 2/4/6/8/10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage.

Just noticed this difference in wording. It seems it can proc from wand/melee attacks.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:54 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:50AM

I don't understand why though. These classes already do less damage than rogues; why limit them further. Blizzard has to understand that standing around for the entire remainder of a fight because you've reached an aggro plateau is not fun. I'm not sure it'd be unbalancing at all.

I can't find the exact quote right now, but when this matter was discucced on offical forums Tseric said that "mages are not getting an active deagrro, because its a challenge of a class to manage agrro using other ways".

pkScary · 05/05/06, 9:56 AM

If that's the way Blizzard wants the class to be played, add deaggro components to most of the end-game bosses, ie the Broodlord Blastwave.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by pkScary,May 5th, 2006 @ 7:56AM

If that's the way Blizzard wants the class to be played, add deaggro components to most of the end-game bosses, ie the Broodlord Blastwave.

Blastwave is not a deaggro.

♦ Praetorian · 05/05/06, 10:00 AM

Do you think Tseric genuinely understands what an aggro plateau is? Do you think he can mathematically explain how again an untauntable mob with a %-based deaggro anyone without a threat wipe will reach a point where they can no longer safely take any offensive action? That's the problem with these discussions -- people approach them from wildly different vantage points.

No one is suggesting that a mage should be able to go all out from the start on an untanked mob and reset his aggro whenever he feels like it. The issue deals with a phenomenon found solely in particular encounters in post-MC 40-man raiding. That's why it's harder to have a constructive discourse with Blizzard on the topic.

Drauk · 05/05/06, 10:05 AM

The real question is this bullshit what Tseric is thinking, or he is communicating a thoughts of class designer.