Shatter now works with ALL mage spells, which could be reasonable with Arcane Explosion when you include the new +Crit it gets. Presumably that's Blizz's idea of an 'Elementalist' build.
We've been promised some new Threat and (I believe) Crit mechanics in the next patch... and it's plausible that the Shaman review will include a workable version of a threat reduction.
On the other hand, clearly Pursuit of Justice and Lightwell got together and had a baby when it comes to that new +Armor talent.
Originally Posted by Falcon24,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:47AM
I agree with those except for Ebonroc and Onyxia and Nefarian (but I'm typically being a decurse bitch anyway so I don't get a chance to do damage).
Anyway, these changes are next to worthless in my opinion, Blizzard just doesn't fucking get it, I'd rather they just left the class alone if this is the idea they have for us.
Get CastOptions. You can target the main tank to watch for the curse and cast spells at his/her target without switching. Beneficial spells land on your target while damage spells hit their target.
I'm reserving comment on the changes for now. I was really hoping for better agro reduction, but instead we just got moved farther down the damage list behind the vanishing/feigning classes.
Improved Water would be such a good fit for Tier 1 arcane IMO.
One other positive spin on the new Subtlety:
Most of the time when a mage pulls aggro on something other than Broodlord or whatever, it's because "shit sorry I got like three crits in a row." If you have 3/3 Subtlety a crit frostbolt is no different than a regular frostbolt so you can pace yourself much more easily.
Edit: Also I think Arcane Resilience is a good deal for one talent point. :unsure:
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:54AM
Is there any chance they are going to make AM do considerably less threat by default, thus making the old Arcane Sub talent useless and giving grounds to remove it?
I don't see why they would do this and not mention it in the revamp/patch notes.
Master of Elements is still not going to make elementalist viable
Not only that, but Improved Counterspell and Presence of Mind are still buried a good ways into the Arcane tree. The benefits that these talents bestow far outweigh anything that you would get by giving them up.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 4th, 2006 @ 1:00PM
One other positive spin on the new Subtlety:
Most of the time when a mage pulls aggro on something other than Broodlord or whatever, it's because "shit sorry I got like three crits in a row." If you have 3/3 Subtlety a crit frostbolt is no different than a regular frostbolt so you can pace yourself much more easily.
I think they're just bullshitting you.. when I get a crit and I think I'm anywhere near pulling aggro, I just stop casting for 3 seconds or so. If he got 2 crits in a row and continued chain-casting.. wow.
Originally Posted by Thrillho,May 4th, 2006 @ 12:43PM
As a Fire Mage, with all the crit talents, I have a Fire crit rate of around 20% (hovers between 19-22, depending on gear). That's a significant amount of crit for a mage -- Frost mages will be lower. If, as some people had previously mentioned, spell crits were no longer generating additional aggro (ie, no 1.5 multiplier).
One thing to note is that frost spells get an effective 5% crit buff with the new Winter's Chill. What's more, *all* mages in the raid casting frost spells get that buff, whether or not they're specced into WC.
edit:
And fire got a minor alliance-only buff, in that fire mage w/ Burning Soul + paladin aura = uninterruptable fire casting.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle,May 4th, 2006 @ 12:54PM
Is there any chance they are going to make AM do considerably less threat by default, thus making the old Arcane Sub talent useless and giving grounds to remove it?
Either that, or Tranquil Air will get a buff in threat reduction or functionality (raid-wide, class-specific totems maybe?) in order to even things out. I hope the devs didnt actually further disadvantage horde PvE, as I was assuming this was something they were trying to balance out.
Stalkman has died, and Stalkman will continue to die as long as mages don't have a signifigant way to manage their agro other than letting hunters do the damage.
I liked some of the other changes, not every talent needs to be a winner. They did make AE instant and make the other 5 talent sinks into 3 talent sinks so I can have a little more choice. Consolidating bad talents isn't as good as removing them altogether obviously, but I'll take progress over nothing. Although this being it kinda sucks but they're continuing to tune priests and paladins long after their revamps have finished so hopefully we can expect the same treatment. Frost PvP is taking a decent hit, but I was always an embarassment to PvP so that doesn't ruffle me one way or the other.
Originally Posted by Kalman,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:51AM
Threat for arcane and fire is as:
(1 + .5*crit)
Actually, you forgot to factor in Ignite, which counts as regular DoT damage (and wouldn't be effected by a talent that modifies the threat generated by crits).
Threat/damage from a Fire crit with Ignite, presently, is actually a 1.1 multiplier.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 4th, 2006 @ 12:00PM
Edit: Also I think Arcane Resilience is a good deal for one talent point. :unsure:
Since you are better at theorycraft than I am, explain this to me. With this talent, I gain 169.5 more AC, beefing my AC up to an intimdating 966.5 unbuffed. That means I might have a base 14-15% damage reduction against level 60 attackers.
But why is this even an issue if all I do is PvE? A mage should never be getting hit in PvE unless it's from environmental damage or something else that's unavoidable. The only thing I could see this as being worthwhile in is shaving damage off a cleave that I might get caught in during Sartura or the mobs after Fangkriss. And aren't most mobs that matter level 61 or higher, so it'd be less of a damage reduction anyway? I don't get it, but I also don't get how that mechanic works, so please explain.
I for one am pretty happy with the majority of the changes my class will have.
The fact that I have IAE and Evo for free makes this a buff in itself already.
Arcane Tree:
Arcane Subtlety
Reduces your target's resistance to all your spells by 4/7/10, and all of your spell criticals cause 17/34/50% less threat.
Note: Functionality has been significantly altered.
This plays extremley well for mages. Helps out in PVP and PvE. If you are aimming for a ton of crit this is ungodly for PvE (Espesially with the arrival of Master of Elements). I foresee many more mages aimming exclusively for cirt items now.
Magic Attunement
Increases the effect of your Amplify Magic and Dampen Magic spells by 25/50%.
Note: This talent previously only affected Dampen Magic.
Another big buff depending on how much the Dampen magic spell is increased. GREAT for PvE and very good for many diffrent PvE encounters, Rag, Vael, Firemaw, etc.
Arcane Resilience
Increases your armor by an amount equal to 50% of your Intellect.
Note: Evocation, previously in this location and now a trainer spell, has been traded for one that also gives mages an armor boost.
OMG 200 more ARMOR!!111one
Arcane Power
When activated, your spells deal 30% more damage while costing 30% more mana to cast. This effect lasts 15 seconds.
Note: Damage and mana cost have been reduced by 5%
Slight Nerf is probally waranted if you look at how you can now blow 20 pts into other trees now.
Burning Soul
Gives your fire spells a 35/70% chance to not lose casting time when you take damage.
Note: Previously three increments -- 25/50/65%. One talent point freed up.
This is an insane PvP buff IMO. Only two talent pts for a bigger kick! Gimmie!
Improved Scorch
Your Scorch spells have a 33/66/100% chance to cause your target to be vulnerable to Fire damage. This vulnerability increase the Fire damage dealt to your target by 2% and lasts 15 seconds Stacks up to 5 times.
Note: Previously five increments of 20%. Two more talent points freed.
Was crap before still is crap. Anyone use this? I suppose you would want one firemage running around in raids spamming scorch.
Combustion
When activated, this spell causes each Fire damage spell you cast to increase your critical strike chance with Fire damage spells by 10%. This effect lasts until you have caused 3 critical strikes with Fire spells.
Note: Significant functionality change. This used to grant a 100% chance to crit with your next fire spell. The cooldown is not listed.
I think this will be a hot talent for debate. 10% dosen't seem like alot. I should be critting a ton anyways if I am a fire mage. Does that make this talent a waste? Although if you could amass enough crit gear to push your crit rate into an insane number, (about 56% crit rate buffed) and spam scorch, you could get some incredible ignite ticks. Also need to know the cooldown to see if this is practical or not.
Master of Elements
Your Fire and Frost spell criticals will refund 10/20/30% of their base mana cost.
Note: This is a new ability and, interestingly, affects more than one talent tree.
This is huge for people trying to make a crit build. Fire will get a huge benift from this. Ice will NEVER EVER run outta mana now if they spec right.
Permafrost
Increases the duration of your Chill effects by 1 second and reduces the target's speed by an additional 4%/7%/10%.
Note: Additional speed reduction is new.
I was never a fan of permafrost but I loved winters chill. This talent may be enough to push me into spending 5 extra talent pts for what I used to get for 8.
Frost Warding
Increases the armor and resistances given by your Frost Armor and Ice Armor spells by 15/30%. In addition, gives your Frost Ward a 10% chance to reflect Frost spells and effects while active.
This stacked with Arcane Resillience. I wonder how much DMG mitigation I would recieve.
Frostbite
Gives your Chill effects a 5/10/15% chance to freeze the target for 5 seconds.
Note: Previously a Rank 6 item. Was also previously five increments of 3%. Two more skill points freed up. Winter's Chill moved to Rank 6, with adjusted functionality.
Another godly buff. I love this thing in PvP and stilluseful in many PvE situations (lawl rag). Every ice mage will take 5 points into this.
Improved Blizzard
Adds a chill effect to your Blizzard spell. This effect lowers the target's movement speed by 40/60/75%. Lasts 4.50 seconds.
Note: Movement speed reduced by an additional 5%. Effect duration tripled.
Godly buff for the talent. I don't see myself taking this though any time in the future. I seem to always get hit anyways when raiding with AOE and I don't need to AOE gring for EXP anymore.
Shatter
Requires 3 points in Frostbite
Increases the critical strike chance of all your spells against frozen targets by 10%.
Note: Apparently now only one increment.
Eh? Is this just 10% for 3 talent points or does it go up to 50% like it was before? Needs clarification.
Ice Barrier
Instant cast, 30-second cool down
Instantly shields you, absorbing 454 damage. Lasts 1 minute. While the shield holds, spells will not be interrupted.
Huge buff, I like this a ton! It is now practical.
I see alot of good that will come of this patch with none of it really overpowered. People complained about us going WTFPWNBBQ burst dmg. Blizz is helping us to choose not to spec POM with other incentives in the other trees. AP also got a nerf to ween us to the other trees. I think my new build is going to be something like 30 fire with 21 Ice. Tons of dmg with fire + Ice Block + tons of mana gained back through the master of elements with still alot of PvP potential.
Since you are better at theorycraft than I am, explain this to me. With this talent, I gain 169.5 more AC, beefing my AC up to an intimdating 966.5 unbuffed. That means I might have a base 14-15% damage reduction against level 60 attackers.
But why is this even an issue if all I do is PvE? A mage should never be getting hit in PvE unless it's from environmental damage or something else that's unavoidable. The only thing I could see this as being worthwhile in is shaving damage off a cleave that I might get caught in during Sartura or the mobs after Fangkriss. And aren't most mobs that matter level 61 or higher, so it'd be less of a damage reduction anyway? I don't get it, but I also don't get how that mechanic works, so please explain.
Are you going to tell me that you never die to physical damage, and your only deaths are ever caused by getting breathed on or something?
Ok, if you have 800 armor currently that is 12.7% redux. If your talent increases that to 970 armor, let's say, that's 15% redux.
With the talent, you will take 97.3% as much physical damage as you used to.
2.7% less physical damage for one talent point is a good deal no matter who you are. And arguments about marginal value have no merit. "But if something's hitting me I'm already dead!" No, you aren't. Not necessarily. A loose mob that might 2-shot you now might take you to 50hp with this talent, buying time for heals to land or a warrior to taunt it off. When you AoE, taking 2.7% less damage from all the things beating on you might prolong your life by the extra fractions of a second needed for a heal to land. And so forth.
It's 2.7% redux for a single talent point. That's a good deal, period.
Originally Posted by Thrillho,May 4th, 2006 @ 1:08PM
Originally Posted by Kalman,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:51AM
Threat for arcane and fire is as:
(1 + .5*crit)
Actually, you forgot to factor in Ignite, which counts as regular DoT damage (and wouldn't be effected by a talent that modifies the threat generated by crits).
Threat/damage from a Fire crit with Ignite, presently, is actually a 1.1 multiplier.
You have caught my fire-hating self redhanded. Is it 40% of the crit, or 40% of the base?
Assuming 40% of the crit, and that the DoT isn't reduced in threat, fire is then (assuming ignite):
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 4th, 2006 @ 1:14PM
It's 2.7% redux for a single talent point. That's a good deal, period.
It's not that 2.7% redux for a single point isn't a good deal. It is, if you think about it. The problem is thats not what mages needed so adding stuff like that feels like a slap.
Originally Posted by flyinfungi,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:10AM
Combustion
When activated, this spell causes each Fire damage spell you cast to increase your critical strike chance with Fire damage spells by 10%. This effect lasts until you have caused 3 critical strikes with Fire spells.
Note: Significant functionality change. This used to grant a 100% chance to crit with your next fire spell. The cooldown is not listed.
I think this will be a hot talent for debate. 10% dosen't seem like alot. I should be critting a ton anyways if I am a fire mage. Does that make this talent a waste? Although if you could amass enough crit gear to push your crit rate into an insane number, (about 56% crit rate buffed) and spam scorch, you could get some incredible ignite ticks.
The way I interpreted combustion, your crit rate would continue to increase until you got 3 crits. So if you started at 30%:
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 40%.
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 50%.
cast crit fireball, crit rate now 60%.
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 70%.
cast crit fireball, crit rate now 80%.
cast crit fireball, 3 crits means the spell ends.
The best thing to come out of this revamp is the free respec.
I won't comment as to the quality of the revamp because I just have a shitty alt fire mage but it certainly didn't wow me like the priest and druid revamps.
"If I feel it is neccessary to talk down to you I will, and I do not care if it hurts your feelings... don't talk about shit you don't understand" -Ike
Originally Posted by ex-Scorponok,May 4th, 2006 @ 1:18PM
Originally Posted by flyinfungi,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:10AM
Combustion
When activated, this spell causes each Fire damage spell you cast to increase your critical strike chance with Fire damage spells by 10%. This effect lasts until you have caused 3 critical strikes with Fire spells.
Note: Significant functionality change. This used to grant a 100% chance to crit with your next fire spell. The cooldown is not listed.
I think this will be a hot talent for debate. 10% dosen't seem like alot. I should be critting a ton anyways if I am a fire mage. Does that make this talent a waste? Although if you could amass enough crit gear to push your crit rate into an insane number, (about 56% crit rate buffed) and spam scorch, you could get some incredible ignite ticks.
The way I interpreted combustion, your crit rate would continue to increase until you got 3 crits. So if you started at 30%:
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 40%.
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 50%.
cast crit fireball, crit rate now 60%.
cast non-crit fireball, crit rate now 70%.
cast crit fireball, crit rate now 80%.
cast crit fireball, 3 crits means the spell ends.
Does that sound right?
Yeah. That's how I interpreted it as well.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Cool. I really like it, because it gives you a big damage boost, but not necessarily all at once - it'll be spread out over the next 10-15s. So it's not like you'll be able to activate it and immediately one-shot someone.
Originally Posted by ex-Scorponok,May 4th, 2006 @ 2:23PM
Cool. I really like it, because it gives you a big damage boost, but not necessarily all at once - it'll be spread out over the next 10-15s. So it's not like you'll be able to activate it and immediately one-shot someone.
Which is why no one will take this over PoM. It's the same problem shamans have in their Elemental tree with Elemental Mastery vs. NS.
Hmm. I actually sorta like the 33/18 combustion chainscorch build for raiding. No, you don't have iceblock, but you get some awesome sustainability.
Arcane: 18 points
Arcane Subtlety (3/3)
IAM(5/5)
Arcane Concentration(5/5)
Magic Attunement(2/2) - note that they buffed the base versions of Amp/Dampen.
Meditation(3/3)
Fire: 33 points
Improved Fireball(5/5)
Ignite(5/5) - C'thun p1 should be fun when he's glowing red all the time!
Flamethrowing(2/2)
Incinerate(2/2)
Burning Soul(2/2)
Improved Scorch(5/5)
Master of Elements(3/3)
Critical Mass(3/3)
Firepower(5/5)
Combustion
The real weaknesses here are being forced to take 2 garbage points in Arcane to get to Meditation and no Improved Counterspell.
Originally Posted by ex-Scorponok,May 4th, 2006 @ 12:23PM
Cool. I really like it, because it gives you a big damage boost, but not necessarily all at once - it'll be spread out over the next 10-15s. So it's not like you'll be able to activate it and immediately one-shot someone.
Yeah, I like the new Combustion too, if that's how it works. It's nice that it gives a bigger damage boost than PoM at least, but PoM still has much much more utility.
05/04/06, 2:57 PM
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