Rogue Combat Daggers DPS Spreadsheet

◊ chalon · 05/04/06, 6:35 PM

A couple weeks ago a guildmate and I sought out to construct a comprehensive spreadsheet for Combat Daggers (specifically the 17/24/10 variant, such as in my profile http://ctprofiles.net/319052 ).

It's gotten to a point where we're now confident enough that it is ready for public scrutiny. But before we released it on the WoW Rogue forums, I decided it would be good to post it here, since the EJ boards have been pretty heavy in rogue theorycraft ;).

While there are aspects of the spreadsheet where the calculations are not 100% (for instance certain weapon enchants/temp enchants had to be estimated based on available data), the overall confidence level in the numbers is 95%+ I'd say.

The ultimate goal of this spreadsheet is to provide combat dagger rogues an interactive method by which they can compare various gear and enchant options in order to maximize their effectiveness. It also provides an interesting basis for theorycraft arguments such as "How does Might + Kings + MH IP stack up vs. Windfury + Strength of Earth?" (answer here btw appears to be that the Alliance combo is slightly better in most situations, though Windfury scales more dramatically so it evens out when uber-buffed). In this regard, I think it is extremely effective, and I hope everyone out there finds it as useful as we've found it during the creation process :ph34r:.

Since this is still a "Release Candidate" and not a final version, I'd ask that no one directly links to the spreadsheet (especially not on the WoW Rogue forums), but instead links to this thread instead. If you notice any glaring formula errors and/or have any suggestions, please post 'em in this thread.

Both are available in this savefile project:
http://www.savefile.com/projects/299694

fishwaffle · 05/04/06, 7:06 PM

Are you sure your Fiery enchant numbers are right? When I tested it on MH, it came out as:
Dragonfang Blade - Better than +15agi and Crusader
Perdition's Blade - Better than +15agi and Crusader
Death's Sting - Better than +15 agi, barely worse than Crusader

edit: haha I was confused by sword calculations not working on a combat daggers spreadsheet

◊ chalon · 05/04/06, 7:30 PM

Uh, well, first of all it's a combat daggers spreadsheet so if you put a sword in the main hand it will break a lot of things :P. Claw of the Black Drake is main hand only, so it doesn't make sense to place it in a combat daggers spreadsheet.

If you put a sword in the off-hand, Crusader works just fine on it since as Kalman's simulation suggests, there is a constant up-time regardless of weapon speed.

As for the Fiery Weapon numbers, I'm pretty sure they are fairly accurate, though Valar is the one who did those enchant formulas for the most part. Looking at the numbers from Kalman's spreadsheet for the gear setup, it seems to be fairly close to what he got.

One thing to take into account is the scaling of 15 agi in the buffed setup. Eg., if you look at Unbuffed DPS, with the default "Gear & Buffs" setup, 15 agi mainhand gives you 454.53 unbuffed, whereas Fiery gives 455.31 unbuffed, and Crusader gives 455.53.

However, in the buffed setup, you get 588.15 for 15 agi, 587.80 for Firey, and 588.69 for Crusader. The DPS of Fiery does not scale with buffs, and Crusader *slightly* scales, but Agility scales a little better since it has 0.5% crit associated with it.

For instance, look at the dream gear buffed setup...15 agi gives 648.71 buffed DPS, Fiery gives 648.30, and Crusader gives 649.20.

Then if you throw in most consumable buffs, Rallying Cry, Ground Skorpok Assay, Rallying Cry, and Spirit of Zandalar, you get...804.01 for 15 agi, 804.55 for crusader, and 801.91 for Fiery.

Anyways, if you're interested in looking at the formulas for Weapon enchants, unhide the "Weapon Enchants" sheet. I'll see if I can get Valar to say something about the formulas used, as well :P.

• frmorrison · 05/04/06, 8:21 PM

Missing a few Neck items, a few rings, a few trinkets.

Not sure if the Distracting Dagger calcs are right. It does give +6 dagger, but you lose some amount of dps using a blue off-hand. Just double check that.

Maybe link the overall dps numbers to the Gear spreadsheet, so the user does not have to switche pages.

It looks good, keep working on it!

◊ chalon · 05/04/06, 8:34 PM

Missing a few Neck items, a few rings, a few trinkets.

Which neck/rings should be in there but aren't? Tried to list every one a raid rogue could reasonably be using. As for the trinkets, the only major one I can think of that's not there is Maelstrom, as that would require reformatting a bit (or adding a special case). ZHM isn't there either but that is a total PoS for PvE sustained DPS, so no point listing it.

Not sure if the Distracting Dagger calcs are right. It does give +6 dagger, but you lose some amount of dps using a blue off-hand. Just double check that.

Well, it will depend what your dagger skill is at prior to equipping it. If you're at 310 skill already, then Distracting Dagger sucks. But if you're at 305 or 300, the +6 skill provides enough boost in white DPS to actually make it somewhat nice, and better than many purple options.

Maybe link the overall dps numbers to the Gear spreadsheet, so the user does not have to switche pages.

They are there already :). There's the "UNBUFFED" and "BUFFED" DPS boxes on thegear spreadsheet, to the right of the item listings.

• frmorrison · 05/04/06, 9:14 PM

I think that Maelstrom and ZHM are a pretty good PvE trinkets. Not sure how to model it though.

My bad on the dps number/rings/necks, there are all there, not sure what I was smoking then ;).

◊ chalon · 05/04/06, 9:22 PM

Yeah Maelstrom is actually fairly good, I think we had some of these calcs worked out it's just a matter of special casing the formulas (which is a little annoying bleh, but this is already sorta done to model the 2% extra attack from HoJ). But ZHM is just awful compared to the other options :P.

Shalas · 05/04/06, 9:46 PM

Trinketwise you're missing Renataki's Charm of Trickery, although it may be hard to model. Being able to have a slot be empty would be useful, as well.

◊ Kalman · 05/04/06, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas,May 4th, 2006 @ 8:46PM

Trinketwise you're missing Renataki's Charm of Trickery, although it may be hard to model. Being able to have a slot be empty would be useful, as well.

Renataki's is easy.

Extra 60 energy every 3 minutes, so 60 energy every 180 seconds, so 60 energy every 1800 energy, so:

Roughly a 3.33% increase in energy generation. Or, 20.6666 energy per tick.

Pizzarino · 05/04/06, 10:39 PM

Being able to swap gear in and out freely and actually compare the 1.5 DPS increase is seriously awesome. Thank you!

You need LOTP in with the raid buffs. Do Juju power, elixir of the giants, sandworm dumplings, and sunfruit all stack?

Chomp · 05/04/06, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pizzarino,May 4th, 2006 @ 9:39PM

Being able to swap gear in and out freely and actually compare the 1.5 DPS increase is seriously awesome. Thank you!

You need LOTP in with the raid buffs. Do Juju power, elixir of the giants, sandworm dumplings, and sunfruit all stack?

Giants and juju power don't stack. I also noticed juju might isn't listed, but its a pain in the ass to farm and doesn't stack with other buffs, so just as well. Pretty sure its shared w/ firewater - I had giants, mongoose, firewater, and standard alliance raid buffs and it increased my AP by 5 when I used it. Farming frost giants for hours isn't worth 5 AP for 3 fights. I would guess that dumplings/sunfruit dont stack with eachother. I usually roll with mongoose, squid or dumplings, firewater, and juju power. It's great cause you can farm firewater, juju power, cash/runecloth, and work on getting a bear buddy trinket all at the same time! And being a goblin engineer, I get a free port to boot.

Also chalon, you might want to just list jujus under consumables - the quest is obtainable by alliance now (there's a bug with looting the groundspawns for the prereq quest from the troll, but you can still complete the quest by killing giants and looting the frostmaul shards that way).

◊ chalon · 05/04/06, 11:14 PM

Being able to have a slot be empty would be useful, as well.

It's a little counter-intuitive, but if you scroll down all the way on a particular drop down, there is a none option. Perhaps that should be placed at the top, though.

Extra 60 energy every 3 minutes, so 60 energy every 180 seconds, so 60 energy every 1800 energy, so:

Roughly a 3.33% increase in energy generation. Or, 20.6666 energy per tick.

You could just model this as 1 extra backstab every 3 minutes probably, since chances are that's what the energy would be used for anyways.

You need LOTP in with the raid buffs.

Good one, forgot about that one.

Do Juju power, elixir of the giants, sandworm dumplings, and sunfruit all stack?

Elixir of Giants stacks with Sandworm Dumplings. Not sure about the other two, though.

deric · 05/05/06, 12:53 AM

Great work!

I actually have a very similar spreadsheet for personal use, but yours includes procs (Perdition's firebolt, 8pc BF etc) that I couldn't/didn't want to model.

Just a quick note/observation about buffs; I don't know if it's a design decision, but I notice all the standard raid buffs are the untalented versions. The ones I used in my spreadsheet were:

- Improved PW:F is 54*1.3=70.2 sta
- Improved MOTW is 12*1.35=16.2 to all stats
- Improved Rank 7 BS is 232*1.25=290 AP (and 3pc Wrath is another 30 AP on top of that, which I notice you included, though personally I'm usually more likely to be grouped with a DPS warrior with imp BS than a tank with wrath on)
- Improved BoM is 185*1.2=222 AP

Of course, the talented versions may not always be available in raids (druids :ssj:) but I'm fairly sure Fort and BoM, at least, are almost always done by someone with the relevant talents.

PS Is it just me, or does the 3pc bonus from BF chest/pants/bracers actually win out in terms of dps compared to DD chest/pants/qiraji execution bracers on non-poison immune raid bosses (assuming a base 17% resist on a 63 mob)

I thought I missed something out in my own modelling, but this spreadsheet shows pretty much the same thing.

Of course, the substantial sta upgrade going to DD would outweigh the slight dps loss for most people, but it's still pretty sad how drops from the last 3 bosses aren't really as much of a DPS upgrade as their stats would imply (or the 3pc BF bonus makes a much bigger difference than most people think)

◊ Kalman · 05/05/06, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by deric,May 4th, 2006 @ 11:53PM

Great work!

I actually have a very similar spreadsheet for personal use, but yours includes procs (Perdition's firebolt, 8pc BF etc) that I couldn't/didn't want to model.

Just a quick note/observation about buffs; I don't know if it's a design decision, but I notice all the standard raid buffs are the untalented versions. The ones I used in my spreadsheet were:

- Improved PW:F is 54*1.3=70.2 sta
- Improved MOTW is 12*1.35=16.2 to all stats
- Improved Rank 7 BS is 232*1.25=290 AP (and 3pc Wrath is another 30 AP on top of that, which I notice you included, though personally I'm usually more likely to be grouped with a DPS warrior with imp BS than a tank with wrath on)
- Improved BoM is 185*1.2=222 AP

Of course, the talented versions may not always be available in raids (druids :ssj:) but I'm fairly sure Fort and BoM, at least, are almost always done by someone with the relevant talents.

PS Is it just me, or does the 3pc bonus from BF chest/pants/bracers actually win out in terms of dps compared to DD chest/pants/qiraji execution bracers on non-poison immune raid bosses (assuming a base 17% resist on a 63 mob)

I thought I missed something out in my own modelling, but this spreadsheet shows pretty much the same thing.

Of course, the substantial sta upgrade going to DD would outweigh the slight dps loss for most people, but it's still pretty sad how drops from the last 3 bosses aren't really as much of a DPS upgrade as their stats would imply (or the 3pc BF bonus makes a much bigger difference than most people think)

Nope, 3 piece BF is way better than people think, is pretty much the issue.

5 DD/3 BF is certainly a very nice way to go; what you may lose in the stats on the BF pieces, you gain in the increases in poison procs; 25% more IP damage is nothing to scoff at when IP is 4-8% of your total damage output.

EJforumsaccount · 05/05/06, 1:15 AM

Oh Windfury, how I love thee.

I have a couple of questions.
How effective are poisons in BWL? Are there any bosses where 2 crit would serve me better? Are mages immune to Mind Numbing poison? In all of the confusion I've never checked. I could easily test this myself, but we won't be in BWL for another week.

deric · 05/05/06, 1:16 AM

BUTBUT.. [Belt of Never-ending Agony]

Not to mention, ACL gloves are the least painful way to get +daggers, even with +3 on Death's Sting.

Of course, if you're combat daggers, I guess the 5pc DD bonus really doesn't do anything anyway.

deric · 05/05/06, 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by EJforumsaccount,May 5th, 2006 @ 12:15AM

Oh Windfury, how I love thee.

I have a couple of questions.
How effective are poisons in BWL? Are there any bosses where 2 crit would serve me better? Are mages immune to Mind Numbing poison? In all of the confusion I've never checked. I could easily test this myself, but we won't be in BWL for another week.

IP works on everything off the top of my head (including the bosses, which was a pleasant relief coming from MC)

I've never actually tried mind-numbing on the warlocks though.

EJforumsaccount · 05/05/06, 1:22 AM

Well, the main reason I ask is because if a boss is highly resistant to them I can see +2 crit being better.

pitviperz · 05/05/06, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by deric,May 5th, 2006 @ 12:20AM

IP works on everything off the top of my head (including the bosses, which was a pleasant relief coming from MC)

I've never actually tried mind-numbing on the warlocks though.

Not only that, but with the nature vulnerable draconids (SP?) as well as when chromaggus is vulnerable to nature damage, I've seen IP hit for around 300. That's alot of added DPS.

EJforumsaccount · 05/05/06, 1:24 AM

Indeed it would be. I can see Venomous Totem being incredible in those situations.

deric · 05/05/06, 1:27 AM

The only mobs which have higher-than-usual NR are the Green Drakonids at Nef, if you happen to draw that color that week.

(On-topic reply)

HoJ seems to be breaking the buffed DPS crit/hit/agi/str equivalence.

Edit: well, and the overseers/wyrmguards with random elemental resistances

◊ Kalman · 05/05/06, 2:20 AM

Razorgore mages are vulnerable to mindnumbing poison, and it's an excellent way to help reduce their damage output when roguetanking them.

Warlocks are not vulnerable to MNP, and spellbinders are immune to poisons entirely.

Other than that, in BWL, go nuts with the poisons.

EJforumsaccount · 05/05/06, 2:22 AM

Thank you for that info, guys. :laugh:

◊ chalon · 05/05/06, 2:54 AM

Just a quick note/observation about buffs; I don't know if it's a design decision, but I notice all the standard raid buffs are the untalented versions.

No design decision, probably will get these updated for rc4, since as you pointed at usually someone will have the talent for the targetted buffs, and rogues generally will be placed in groups where the warrior has Imp. Battle Shout.

3 piece BF is way better than people think, is pretty much the issue.

What sucks is at least for a while, the bonus seemed to be applied to the poison on creation...so you could craft it with the bonus and it appeared to retain it (both on the tooltip and in some testing). But in 1.9 or so they fixed it to not be applied on creation, but on application :(.

5 DD/3 BF is a good choice if you're combat swords, but with daggers you pretty much *have* to use ACL or you're gimping your DPS.

Personally I'll be going with 5 DD + ACL + Bloodfang Bracers + Belt of Never-Ending Agony. But yeah, for most of the fights where you can use poisons, 3 DD/3 BF + ACL + Never-Ending does give you a 3-4 DPS boost in comparison to 5 DD + ACL + QEB + the belt, from the poisons.

HoJ seems to be breaking the buffed DPS crit/hit/agi/str equivalence.

Odd, this is probably because of the way HoJ was hacked into the DPS formulas originally I'm guessing. we'll see what the issue with that is.

fishwaffle · 05/05/06, 6:14 AM

Originally Posted by chalon,May 4th, 2006 @ 6:30PM

Uh, well, first of all it's a combat daggers spreadsheet so if you put a sword in the main hand it will break a lot of things :P. Claw of the Black Drake is main hand only, so it doesn't make sense to place it in a combat daggers spreadsheet.

callin nothin on that one