Rogue Combat Daggers DPS Spreadsheet - Page 10

kleptoh · 07/12/06, 8:37 AM

couple things to add:

Seal of the Gurubashi Berzerker - 13 Stam, 40 AP

Outrider's Leather/Lizardhide Pants - 28 Agi, 27 Stam, +1% Crit

i'm kicking myself for not downloading the latest version sooner. i've been trying to figure out the Veiled Shadows bonus and came up with a DPS increase pretty close to what the spreadsheet is giving me. much thanks for all the work you've done chalon!

Drauk · 07/12/06, 9:16 AM

Since search disabled atm, could somebody please explain me why 5x, 5x, 3x cycle is considered best for sword rogues with 3/3 imp. SnD ?

Kalman · 07/12/06, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Drauk

Since search disabled atm, could somebody please explain me why 5x, 5x, 3x cycle is considered best for sword rogues with 3/3 imp. SnD ?

Show me a cycle with better efficiency and damage over the cycle. I've never found one, and I've looked.

Drauk · 07/12/06, 2:58 PM

Ehm, im not that competent about rogues. Can you please show, or link calculcation of damage and efficency of cycles ?

Kalman · 07/12/06, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Drauk

Ehm, im not that competent about rogues. Can you please show, or link calculcation of damage and efficency of cycles ?

Cycle calcs assume 3/3 Ruthlessness and 1/1 Relentless Strikes.

SnD numbers:

CP    0/3   1/3        2/3      3/3        CPC  EC

1      09s   10.35s   11.7s   13.05s   0.4    20      
2      12s   13.80s   15.6s   17.40s   1.4    15
3      15s   17.25s   19.5s   21.75s   2.4    10
4      18s   20.70s   23.4s   26.10s   3.4    05
5      21s   24.15s   27.3s   30.45s   4.4    00

CPC and EC are CP and energy costs with the effects of Ruthlessness and Relentless averaged in.

CP "cost" 40 or 60 energy each to generate.

Essentially, the approach is to say: Given an N point SnD to initialize the cycle, can I sustain the cycle? If I can sustain it (build enough CP to reinitialize, plus have energy left over to trigger if it isn't a free ability that starts the cycle) do I have enough energy left to use another ability? Etc.

5/5/3 proof (assumes 3/3 ISnD):

5 CP SnD yields 30 seconds of SnD time - thus, 300 energy.
5 CP SnD *costs* 4.4*40 energy (176 energy), leaving us 124 energy to work with.
If we spend this 124 energy on a 3 CP SnD (106 energy cost), it gives us an additional 220 energy to work with, for a total spare energy of 238.
238 energy allows us a 5 CP Eviscerate plus some significant spare energy to use to buffer the cycle, as well as periodically allowing us to sub in a 5/5/4 or even 5/5 rotation.

(Why not 5/5/4 at all times? Because 300 energy isn't enough to generate both a 5 CP Evisc (186 energy) and a 4 CP SnD (141 energy), which means you lose some uptime, even though it seems to fit if you don't account for that quirk.)

So, over the course of a 52 second 5/5/3 cycle, you've gotten 52 seconds of SnD time and a 5 CP Evisc, and spent 10 energy on anything that isn't SS.

Actually, since I've never done the full theoretical cycle:

5/5/3 as we've said leaves us with 52 extra energy at the start of the next round, and a 30 second SnD running (352 energy to work with.)

352 energy is not quite enough to do a 5/5 on the next round (5/5 is 362 energy requirement).

Is it more optimal to do 5/5/3/5/5/3/5/5 or 5/5/3/5/5/4/5/5? Honestly, the efficiency difference between the two won't matter, because you'll pick one or the other based on your luck with Relentless/Ruthless procs.

However, in both cases you're spending an absolutely minimal amount of energy on non-SS purposes.

Compare it to a 5/x cycle, where X is the max Evisc.

5 CP SnD gens 300, costs 176, leaving 124.

Biggest Evisc that fits into 124? A 3 CP Evisc, at 116 energy.

Compare 5 periods of 5/3 (30 second cycle) to 3 periods of 5/5/3 (50 second cycle):

Both have 100% SnD uptime.

5/3 spends 20 energy per cycle (100 total) on non-SS purposes.
5/5/3 spends 20 energy per cycle (60 total) on non-SS purposes.

3x 5 CP Evisc is 3*936 damage plus talents.
5x 3 CP Evisc is 5*600 damage plus talents.

You achieve 192 more eviscerate damage with 5/3 vs. 5/5/3, but spend 40 more energy to do so.

Unless your SS DPE is < 4.8, you're better off with 5/5/3.

(My SS DPE is in the area of 15, top tier rogues should see 18+)

Drauk · 07/12/06, 8:56 PM

Thank you, that was very comprehensive and detalied explanation.

One more question. Have you analyzed combat swords builds with points in poison ? Like for example this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eMoxLZMhEz0Vzxco ?

Kalman · 07/12/06, 9:04 PM

Originally Posted by Drauk

Thank you, that was very comprehensive and detalied explanation.

One more question. Have you analyzed combat swords builds with points in poison ? Like for example this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eMoLLZMhEz0Vzxco ?

Not comprehensively, but I think the functionality to do it is built into Chalon's DPS calculator.

(One thing to note: his calc for swords assumes 3/3 Isnd. You have 1 free point. *cough*. That said, I suspect 3/5 IIP is a better source of DPS than 3/3 IEvisc for 20/31 sword builds on most fights.)

Drauk · 07/12/06, 9:10 PM

Yeah, i misscliked. Should be full lethality of course. As far as i understand having 2/3 imp. SnD leaves very small margin on SnD cycles ?

Kalman · 07/12/06, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Drauk

Yeah, i misscliked. Should be full lethality of course. As far as i understand having 2/3 imp. SnD leaves very small margin on SnD cycles ?

For daggers. For swords, 3/3 is required to access the 5/5/3 cycle.

Without it, you get:

5 CP @ 176 energy yields 270 energy. 106 energy is literally *exactly* enough left over to do a 3 CP SnD, so you're basically cutting Evisc out of your cycle by going 2/3 as well as having a cycle that breaks whenever you run into dodge/parry.

chalon · 07/12/06, 9:36 PM

Yep. But realistically so you don't screw over other rogues in your guild, your acquisiton process should be the first 2 out of 3 you can get from: DFT, Slayer's Crest, and Kiss of the Spider.

As an addendum to my response, I will say if Slayer's Crest and Kiss of the Spider invoke shared cooldowns, you may be better off with DFT + Kiss of the Spider.

probiscus · 07/12/06, 9:38 PM

Anyone else notice the WoW Rogue forums are broken, and which two posts got bumped to the top? Wish I could buy those two a drink.

Gwaihir · 07/12/06, 9:39 PM

you can thank me later ;)

Paid advertisements, get your captive audience now....

Gwaihir · 07/12/06, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

Yep. But realistically so you don't screw over other rogues in your guild, your acquisiton process should be the first 2 out of 3 you can get from: DFT, Slayer's Crest, and Kiss of the Spider.

As an addendum to my response, I will say if Slayer's Crest and Kiss of the Spider invoke shared cooldowns, you may be better off with DFT + Kiss of the Spider.

I may be confused, but was this one of the things they streamlined with the "clicky cooldown" change in 1.11? I've never been one that has tried to actively FD/swap clickable trinks with my passives, so I'm not that experienced with clickies in general, but as far as I know, the only clicky trinkets that could not be stacked were the ones that had corresponding buffs (ToEP/ZHC, AP trinkets). Since one trinket is haste, and the other is AP, seems like they should work together.

relevant patch note:

- Many items that can be equipped have had their cooldown category
removed and will be controlled exclusively by the item's self
cooldown.

Kalman · 07/12/06, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Gwaihir

you can thank me later ;)

Paid advertisements, get your captive audience now....

Hey, while your at it, my ego could use a bump on http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1#post1290173

:p

Kalman · 07/12/06, 10:03 PM

KotS is listed as sharing cooldowns with Venomous Totem by Thott - *if* Thott is correct, that'd point towards Slayer's being on the list eventually as well.

Gwaihir · 07/12/06, 10:23 PM

ah, forgot that Thott tends to list these sorta things. You can tell I really don't use activated trinkets much at all <_<

Un · 07/13/06, 6:29 PM

Chalon your spreadsheet is one of the best tools a combat rogue could have. If not the best.

I know I've bugged you about this on the WoW forums, but any chance we could get an update with the Undead Slaying set added in?

The +2% dmg vs. Undead does effect Poison dmg.

I know the dps this set provides is more or less = T2 - but I'm dying to find out if it gives a slight advantage to dps vs. T2, or if it trails behind T2 by a slight bit.

Cheers.

chalon · 07/14/06, 2:49 AM

Well, a long night at work sitting around waiting for a burn has resulted in v1.10!

http://www.savefile.com/projects/299694

v1.10 - 7/13/2006
-Added new 1.12 talent options as per the "second look" - Yay for Adrenaline Rush?!
-Added Opportunity as a talent option as opposed to being hard-coded
-Fixed Ground Skorpok Assay to only give 25 Agi as the new nerfed version :(
-Changed Windfury and GoA/SoE to assume they are talented
-Added Undead Slaying Set

chalon · 07/14/06, 3:02 AM

BTW if you downloaded it in the past 10 min or so, you may want to re-download, as I fixed an error in Relentless Strikes ;).

probiscus · 07/14/06, 3:46 AM

Speaking of rogue DPS, razuvius haxx:

I think that guy got credited for one of razu's massive strikes on a student or something.

chalon · 07/14/06, 4:31 AM

2 updates in one night, and I'm still trapped at work...

v1.11 - 7/14/2006
-Fixed nextstat breaking when selecting either Murder or Undead Slayer set bonus (oops).
-Added Seal of the Gurubashi Berserker, Bracers of Subterfuge, Leggings of Apocalypse, Sadist's Collar, Medallion of the Dawn, Might of Cenarius
-Removed Wormhide Boots, since they don't exist :(

And probiscus, on Razuvious, once the boss is dead, run over and smack an add.

Wodahs · 07/14/06, 4:38 AM

And Smack it fast! Timing is everything, but the mc'd add on Raz is incredibly vuln to melee dmg right after mc breaks. We arent sure of the circumstances to reporduce it, but one of our hunters has gotten a couple 40k+ hits right after raz has died, on seperate Raz kills.

• Maestroquark · 07/14/06, 9:36 AM

Haha, that's like the time I got turned into a draconid versus Chromaggus (yay sleepy raiding). One of our tanks taunts me and I manage to get like a 640 melee crit on him while Blade Flurry was up. Did 14.4k damage to the Rogue standing next to him :)

Edit: to add value to this post ... Buffed totals aren't adding in Madcap bonus (+P51)

Mo · 07/14/06, 2:17 PM

I found a minor bug in 1.11 (maybe it was in earlier versions too), a difference between buffed dps and dream buffed dps with the same gear/buffs, when permanent haste is used:

In M32 on dream buffed dps, change 1.3 to M31 (twice), to match the other sheets.

Anyway, thanks for updating it so fast with the new talent changes.

Wibble · 07/14/06, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

And Smack it fast! Timing is everything, but the mc'd add on Raz is incredibly vuln to melee dmg right after mc breaks. We arent sure of the circumstances to reporduce it, but one of our hunters has gotten a couple 40k+ hits right after raz has died, on seperate Raz kills.

Instructor Razuvious has an Unbalancing Strike ability, similar to the Twin Emperors. Generally when he goes down, the mind-controlled add still has this debuff, so that's why you're able to burn him down so fast.