Rogue Combat Daggers DPS Spreadsheet - Page 13

Elerith · 07/27/06, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by chalon

Uh, Weapon Skill doesn't decrease the frequency of glancing blows, but rather decreases their severity. That is, at 300 skill glancing blows do 70% of white attack damage, and at 310 they do 100%.

I guess it's capped at 100%? Meaning that, me being a human, I won't have much use for both Maladath and Weapon Expertise? There's still the added 0.16% crit and such, but it wouldn't really be worth it to go beyond 310 skill, would it?

Faytte · 07/27/06, 9:09 AM

*wonders why he thought the cap was 315*

Staarkhand · 07/27/06, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Elerith

Originally Posted by chalon

Uh, Weapon Skill doesn't decrease the frequency of glancing blows, but rather decreases their severity. That is, at 300 skill glancing blows do 70% of white attack damage, and at 310 they do 100%.

I guess it's capped at 100%? Meaning that, me being a human, I won't have much use for both Maladath and Weapon Expertise? There's still the added 0.16% crit and such, but it wouldn't really be worth it to go beyond 310 skill, would it?

That's correct, it's not worth it to go past 310 as at that point you will be glancing at 100%.

When the glancing blow mod came out there was some initial confusion about it reporting glancing blow damage over 100%, which led to rumors. It was pointed out in another thread here that that was simply due to the way it was handling blocked damage. Specifically, it was being reported as normal damage, which was naturally lower, so your average normal hit appeared to be a bit lower than your 100% glancing hits.

ayata · 07/27/06, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

I just noticed that the 1.14 that's checked in has Windfury, SoE, and the Pally Buffs checked on the "Gear & Buffs" page, but not the Dream one. Oops. So that may be why you saw the discrepancy.

yup,
SOE was the issue for me, my bad

Faytte · 07/27/06, 2:39 PM

so 300 is needed for a level 60

310 is needed for a 63. Out of curiosity whats the breakdown for level 61 and 62. 303/306? then level 63 requires an extra skill, or is it 303.33/306.66, etc.

chalon · 07/27/06, 3:11 PM

310 is needed for a 63. Out of curiosity whats the breakdown for level 61 and 62. 303/306? then level 63 requires an extra skill, or is it 303.33/306.66, etc.

I don't know, I've been wondering this as well lately.

Royksopp · 07/27/06, 4:00 PM

On the topic of combat builds. In 1.12, what would be the most ideal builds for a combat rogue? (Swords & Daggers, please).

Kalman · 07/27/06, 4:33 PM

Dagger-wise, it's going to be a toss up between 15/31/5 and 17/28/5+1 builds, IMO. 15/31/5 will probably win out in total damage and in burst, though, if you're good about remembering to hit AR.

Sword-wise, probably 19/32/0 or similar.

• frmorrison · 07/27/06, 5:29 PM

Which is better for Sword talents, Ruthlessness or imp Evis?

Or better yet, which is the ideal Assasin tree setup for a Sword Rogue with 18 points?

Kalman · 07/27/06, 6:39 PM

That's a hell of a question.

I thought it was going to be 1/3 Imp Evisc, 3/3 3/3 in tier 2 (the standard 18 points for an 18/33 build in 1.11)... but I'm not sure, because that was based on an assumption I no longer care to trust regarding cycles. I have to do a bunch of cycle analysis. I still *think* it's right, but I'm not sure any more.

probiscus · 07/27/06, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I have to do a bunch of cycle analysis.

Need any help? Or is it all modeling-type stuff...

Royksopp · 07/27/06, 6:51 PM

When I was combat swords, I didn't depend on Ruthlessness at all. If I had an unlucky string of not adding an additional combo point, I was still able to do the 5/5/3 cycle without any downtime on SnD. (Barring no parries/dodges)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=nhtcoxZG0Ez0Vzxfo - This is how I'm probably going to spec come 1.12. Still viable in PvP and PvE. (Too bad they didn't make SnD base at 30 seconds in 1.12 :()

Kalman · 07/27/06, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by probiscus

Originally Posted by Kalman

I have to do a bunch of cycle analysis.

Need any help? Or is it all modeling-type stuff...

I'm writing up a page with the energy deltas for a given finisher/talentspec/generator combo. I may even get fancy and include the expected cost including dodges.

Then I'm going to sit down and play with constructing closed cycles and try to find the most efficient cycle.

There has *got* to be a better/systematic technique from this, probably something from dynamic programming or industrial optimization theory, but I don't know it or how to use it. :(

probiscus · 07/27/06, 7:42 PM

Isn't this what algorithm's are designed to solve? I'm way out of my league here, but 'optimization cycles' screams alogrithm to me.

Kalman · 07/27/06, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by probiscus

Isn't this what algorithm's are designed to solve? I'm way out of my league here, but 'optimization cycles' screams alogrithm to me.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some kind of optimization algorithm that applies.

I just don't know what it is, or how to apply it. I mean, in theory I do, in practice, we'll see. I'm messing with an Excel sheet that's going to be, if nothing else, a fun way for people to play around with cycle math without going into the nitty gritty of it. I'll throw it online at some point and link it here.

(Incidentally, it's already told me the longform for the 3/5/5 cycle is 3/5/5e/3/5/5e/5/5e/3/5/5e/5/5e - not verified that there aren't local minima, but the overall energy usage is within generation limits).

Jo · 07/28/06, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Dagger-wise, it's going to be a toss up between 15/31/5 and 17/28/5+1 builds, IMO. 15/31/5 will probably win out in total damage and in burst, though, if you're good about remembering to hit AR.

Sword-wise, probably 19/32/0 or similar.

19/32/0?

• frmorrison · 07/28/06, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Jo

Originally Posted by Kalman

Dagger-wise, it's going to be a toss up between 15/31/5 and 17/28/5+1 builds, IMO. 15/31/5 will probably win out in total damage and in burst, though, if you're good about remembering to hit AR.

Sword-wise, probably 19/32/0 or similar.

19/32/0?

Wait a bit, he will run some numbers to see the best raid dps Sword spec. 1.12 is still a few weeks away.

Kalman · 07/28/06, 1:14 AM

Fun little toy for folks for the meantime.

This is RC1, so, don't post it to the main WoW forums yet. Download it, play around with it, see what you can come up with, I present:

CP/Energy Cycle Analysis Spreadsheet RC1
http://www.radiationnow.net/wow/cpcycleanalyzer.xls

Features:

-Calculates total energy-based damage: SS, SnD-derived white damage, and Evisc.

-Calculates energy-based DPS via two methods - a SnD cycletime for energy surplus SnD cycles, and a minimal energy generation time for energy deficit SnD cycles, meaning it can handle things like the 36 second 5s/5e cycle properly. Automatically chooses the appropriate method for the cycle and talent build specced.

-Assumes Relentless Strikes, but can handle any combination of Ruthlessness/Imp SnD/Lethality/Imp Evisc you feel like throwing at it and properly calculate the cycle surplus/deficits, adjusting cycle time as mentioned before if cycle goes energy-negative.

Doesn't handle glancing/skill calcs yet, which I need to add, but it does handle the energy/damage consequences of dodge. Only does a basic hasteable DPS approximator (white only, hit/dodge/crit factored in, ignores proc-based damage) to calc SnD value. 5 piece DD isn't modeled, but could be added quite easily.

Play around, tell me if you find bugs/potential improvements/new cycles.

• Andeh · 07/28/06, 2:18 AM

Very nice, I was tinkering around with something to analyze SnD downtime based on talents, and wanted to figure out the dps lost, but this blows it out of the water.

Quick question though. Does the %to hit include Precision? (aka... I have 16% hit from gear, and 5/5 precision: do I put in 0.16 or 0.21?)

Thanks.

Kalman · 07/28/06, 2:26 AM

%tohit is total %tohit - put in 0.21 if you have 16% gear and 5% talent.

Kalman · 07/28/06, 4:07 AM

Uploaded a new revision which includes Sinister Strike, Backstab, and Hemo sheets, better entry methods/arrangement, better instructions, glance handling, more talents handled, better math (accounts for +skill benefits to certain things), and 5 examples of CP cycles for each of the 3 builds. This one is actually ready for comment and beta testing.

Kalman's CP Cycle Analyzer RC1: http://www.radiationnow.net/wow/cpcycleanalyzer.xls

Kalman · 07/28/06, 5:29 AM

Last update for the night:

More functionality added. Relentless Strikes is now handled. Surplus energy in a cycle is optionally converted into damage directly at attack DPE to simulate things like "BS when you're already at 5 CP - better to waste the CP than the energy on an Evisc". Which, incidentally, you can prove to be true using the sheet. Fixed some bugs in +skill handling.

Same address, RC1.1.

tlai · 07/28/06, 11:05 AM

that spreadsheet is confusing; i followed the instuctions and didnt really know how to read it :(.

Can u tell me whats the best cycle to use for combat daggers to make it easy lol

Crit 33.87
AP 1141
+hit 0.21
MHdps 65.3
MHspd 1.6
Ohdps 51.2
+skill 5

Kalman · 07/28/06, 11:16 AM

In practice? Combat daggers pretty much always wins with a 5/0 cycle with spare energy spent on BSing past 5 in the event you have spare energy.

But really, I'd prefer to hear *what* confuses you about it - the idea at this point being to get feedback and make it easier to use for an eventual general release.

Tel · 07/28/06, 11:26 AM

Its too wide for my screen :) Would be good if it was a scroll up/down job, rather than left to right (im on sh**ty pc's at work with rubbish res though, that might be why).

The layout of the cycles could use some tweaking too, as although i understand what you're talking about, i can see it being very confusing for rogues less consersant with the x/x/x cycle layout. Is just a layout change again tho.

Functionality wise it seems very good, is there any way it would be possible to integrate it (in the future) into the combat daggers/swords spreadsheets so that it picks up values for crit/spec etc from there or not?