Don't know what your definition of raiding is, but my guild has just started ZG over the last two months. We are not hard core, most of us have families and commitments outside of WOW. I am able to attend 50% of our runs and that is ablout normal for our guild. We downed Thekal last night on our first attempt and will be trying Hakkar next week.

So yes I have the madcap chestpiece but can't wear it yet since I am only honored. I have the blooddrenched footpads but use the SC ones since I still get the +40 AP bonus. When I replace my chest or get enough DKP for the shoulders I will replace my SC boots.

Sorry if I don't quite meet your definition of a raiding rogue.

I think he was referring to other blue (similarly accessible) pieces being better than shadowcraft if you're trying to maximize raid dps, not that you're not hardcore enough.

Devilsaur, for example, is ridiculously overpowered for a blue set.

As I tried to explain earlier, the reason the set bonus has not yet been included is partly because of the energy proc set bonus. Also, when I am considering what part of the sheet I wish to improve, I usually consider items last, and formulas first. It is pretty rare that people have 4/8 SC these days with 20 man loot out (how many people actually attempt to get SC now?). So instead of spending time to add the SC/DM bonuses, I spent the time concentrating elsewhere. The next release of the sheet will hopefully include the +40 ap bonuses from both SC and DM. There is a lot of stuff I am working on to improve the sheet, and having more items represented is one of them. But as I said, it is a lower priority right now.

If you do the math, the rank change in backstab is worth ~5 dps, so just subtract that much if you don't have the book.

if you're interested in the math:

210 -> 225 = 15 point increase base.
15 pt * 1.2 for oppo = 18 point base inc
18 base * hit % + (18 * 2.3) * crit % ~= 30 damage
so 30/6 = 5 dps.

there you go :)

It might have been mentioned before though I didn't notice anything about it while skimming through the last few pages, so I gotta ask: are you planning on fixing the swordspec percentage? I've done some serious testing with CTS/Iblis & the Procrate steadied around 8,5%.

Maybe that was counting white procs + special procs, adding specials % to white % to get a rate above 5%? I don't know if that would happen like that or not.

It was indeed counting Procs from white Hits & Specials (ordinary AQ/Naxx Raids), but AFAIK Procwatch doesn't differ between those two. Since I suffered a major Harddrive Crash yesterday it'll take me some time to recollect enough data to be representative (volunteers are very welcome), but I'll be working on it.

Since I had a Procrate of 2.5% per hit when wielding a mace in the MH (Speed 1.9) and CTS in the OH just autoattacking a Paladin (to see if the Extra Hit would be performed by the Mace, not just out of wickedness), I don't think it too far out that a Sword MH might add around 5%.. but we'll see.

I can assure you that I have tested that the extra attack is always performed by the mainhand. I also can assure you that special attacks are modelled as having a 5% chance to proc (if mainhand is a sword). It sounds like what you are saying is that the special attacks skewed your results as they were not counted and thus resulted in a larger % than actual. If this is not what you are saying, then please explain further.

No need assuring me about the Extra Hits - like I already said I tested it by myself (http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7815, post#19) since I didn't find anybody who could show me his logs to prove this common "knowledge". ;)

About the Swordspec: Procwatch averaged out a Procchance of 8,5% wielding CTS/Iblis over about 20k Hits, I just kept it running on our raids. I never heared this tool doesn't count Styles as Hits, but if it does, well yes, than I'd agree the percentage it shows me is to high. I'm gonna check the Procrate w/o any Styles in comparison, but not before this weekend & I'll probably only do some few k hits. I'll also ask some of my fellow rogues to keep PW running on our raids this week just to check what percentage they'll average out. This of course will againi _include_ Styles.

Can't quite believe noone here ever checked if Swordspec does indeed proc around 5% or more. I even seem to remember a mix up with the Talent description some months (or well half a year) ago when it said 6% instead of 5%, did somebody test it back then and got his perfectly sweet 5%?

Yeah. If you look back in the spell archive data, the tooltip said 6%, but the actual value in game was 5%. Nobody really noticed in practice till the patch that fixed chainproccing, at which point people started experimenting with the swing mechanics. Then they changed the tooltip, at which point everyone had a hissyfit over the "fact" that Sword Spec did less damage than Fist or Dagger.

Ok, I had a few questions about windfury for the sheet, and since I am not horde, I do not have access to testing this information.

First: I assume windfury can proc off of sword specs like poisons currently do.
So, what can proc from a windfury swing? poisons? crusader? sword spec/hoj?

I was under the impression that windfury could not proc itself, so I would assume that this means it cannot proc other procs as well, but have no idea if this is the case.

don't think WF can proc itself, but it should be able to proc everything else.

Anecdotal evidence and "I feel" is the best, but whatever.. swords doesn't feel as bursty as it did a few months ago, feels like more than just sword spec changed. Old screenshot so it might not really be relevant, but untill someone can provide solid evidence it's better than nothing.

WF dated 18th Feb '06, possible chain with WF

With the combat log being the "extremely precise tool" it is you can't really say what really triggered what, but it might give a hint for those well versed in it's interpretation. I don't think I ever saw HoJ chaining off itself the way sword spec used to do. Unfortunately I don't grind much any more so I can't get any "controlled" sessions to see how things proc now, but perhaps someone else might.

Edit: I need to l2read, cut some irrelevant stuff.

Pf -- I just grabbed a Warrior and a Shaman and I'm on my way to the Gurubashi Arena. I don't have access to a HoJ and I'm not currently sword spec'd, but I can test offensive (Fiery) and defensive (Crusader) procs. Will edit with a link to my combat log.

Edit: With Red Rose in off-hand we tramped into the Gurubashi Arena and set ourselves up. The data for Crusader suggests that it can proc off of a Windfury swing:

I'll find more instances if there are any in the log, right now we're pulling up to Moam. :)

pf, I'm working on those changes for you, but it may be Friday before I can really get to them.

Doesn't that make it impossible to ever rule out the possibility, since we're trying to prove the negative? :(

I've had other 1 PPM things proc, and then proc on the special attack (Omen of Clarity in bearform) It was quite obvious due to having a 2.5 speed attack that this is what occured instead of it proccing off the next attack. Certainly not "impossible" A 2.8 speed weapon has (in theory) a 4.66-% chance of proccing Crusader, so that's a .2177-% chance of seeing a double proc with windfury which has a 20% chance of occuring so .04...%?. It should be a 1 in 2300, right?

You're aware that the proc msg always appears _ahead of_ the hit that triggered it? So this log only shows Crusader proccing of the hit that triggered WF, you didn't even post the WF hit itself.
What were you mainhanding/wearing?

So if I'm understanding you correctly, I'm looking for WF Message + Hit (same time), slight lag, Crusader+Hit...but even if I find it, it won't be conclusive proof that the Crusader came from the second (WF) hit unless we have two Crusaders in a row. With my only Crusader'd mainhand being a 2.2-speed weapon (tiger claws yay!...new weapon prz ;_; ), that'll need approximately a million more hours of testing.

Before I slink back into the noob corner, clarify one off-topic thing for me? I keep running into instances involving Sinister Strike where it appears that the Windfury proc/hit are actually landing before the SS does. Voila exhibit du confusion:

If I've broken that down correctly, the orphaned Windfury proc lands before the SS but was proc'd off of it? Sheesh, this /combatlog stuff is starting to remind me of the character sheet in Diablo II...

Wow, it seems as if windfury did not change in 1.11 along with sword spec. Because of that, the combatlog is much easier to understand.

Anyway, to setup a solid test, you would want the slowest weapon you can get enchanted with fiery or lifesteal.

Chance for consecutive lifesteal or fiery procs with weaponspeed:
2.2: 4.84%
2.8: 7.84%
3.3: 10.89%
3.8: 14.44%
Length of time required to test so that there is a <1% chance for a type 1 error.(assuming 100% hitrate and 0% dodge/parry).
2.2: 93 windfurys or ~1021 seconds
2.8: 56 windfurys or ~789 seconds
3.3: 40 windfurys or ~659 seconds
3.8: 30 windfurys or ~561 seconds

If you get 0 double fiery procs from a windfury proc in a timeframe that large, it is almost certain that windfury cannot proc fiery and as such, probably cannot proc other weapon procs. If noone can confirm how windfury works, I will just assume that windfury cannot proc other extra attacks (sword/hoj), but it can proc other things like fiery/crusader/thunderfury etc.

I have a question about 4/9 BS bonus calculations. It seems to me, calculations in spreadsheet will be right, only if dodged BS will cost you 60 energy. I understand difference will be small, even if you start factoring dodged BSes, just want to know if its intended.