Combat Mechanics, 3.0 - Page 10

• frmorrison · 10/15/06, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Was it simply 20*Level/60? Or a more complex formula?
Meaning, a warrior will need 20*70/60= 23.3 agility per crit and a rogue 29*70/60= 33.8?

I believe it is more complex, because Rogues need 29.3 agilty per crit currently. However, there is a new UI for the character frame that tells you everything you want to know about your current stats, of course including your crit from agilty/crit rating/weapon skill/talents.

34 agility per crit @ 70 is a good approximation for a Rogue though.

Fenrus · 10/16/06, 5:46 PM

Is there any new insight as to the way resiliance work? Does it shrink the crit portion of the pie or what?

Emeraude · 10/17/06, 3:46 AM

With the upcoming release of the Burning Crusade, we thought we would take the time to explain more on a new stat that we are introducing: Combat Ratings. These ratings are being used for any combat stat that previously was percentage-based such as: critical strike chance, hit chance, dodge chance and defense skill. Combat ratings are only used with effects generated by items and do not apply to effects that are generated by spells and talents which will continue to work the same.

The following combat ratings are currently in use: weapon skill, defense, dodge, parry, block, hit chance, spell hit chance, critical strike chance, spell critical strike chance, resilience, haste, and spell haste.

*We may introduce others at a later time.

Combat Skills

Unlike fixed percentages such as 2% critical strike chance, combat ratings diminish in potency as your character increases in level. 2% crit is the same at every level, while 28 critical strike rating grants 4% crit at level 34, 2% crit at level 60, and 1.27% crit at level 70. This allows us the ability to create and add new and better items to the world without eventually reaching a point where every character has a 100% chance to critically strike.

Below is the level 60 conversion for combat skills:

Weapon Skill Rating 2.5 rating grants 1 weapon skill
Hit Rating 10 rating grants 1% hit chance
Spell Hit Rating 8 rating grants 1% spell hit chance
Critical Strike Rating 14 rating grants 1% critical strike chance
Spell Critical Strike Rating 14 rating grants 1% spell critical strike chance
Haste 10 rating 1% haste
Spell Haste 10 rating grants 1% spell haste

Defense Skills

The impact on the defense skill and weapon skill systems is slightly more complicated. Many people do not realize these skills actually grant percentage-based benefits already. For example, every 25 points of defense skill grants a 1% dodge chance, 1% parry chance, 1% block chance, 1% increased chance to be missed and 1% decreased chance to be critically hit by physical attacks. Weapon skills have a similar effect for the attacker. Items will now grant skill rating rather than skill directly, and that will convert to an actual skill increase.

Below is the level 60 conversion for defense skills:

Defense Skill Rating 1.5 rating grants 1 defense skill
Dodge Rating 12 rating grants 1% dodge
Parry Rating 20 rating grants 1% parry
Block Rating 5 rating grants 1% block chance

Resilience

Resilience is a special new rating which we have created to reduce the effects of critical hits against your character. It has two components; it reduces the chance you will be critically hit by X percent, and it reduces the damage dealt to you by critical hits by 2X percent. X is the percentage resilience granted by a given resilience rating.

Below is the level 60 conversion for resilience:

Resilience 25 rating grants 1% resilience

Each time you go up a level, the amount of rating needed to get the same benefit will increase. An example of the scaling involved would be the current implementation of Agility which has always worked this way in the live game, requiring more agility for the same critical strike chance as you go up in level

So they gave us the math for 28 crit rating on levels 34/60/70(4%/2%/1.27%), anyone wanna get work on figuring a formula for 70? :)

34 28 4%
47 28 3% <--assumption
60 28 2%
70 28 1.27%
73 28 1% <--assumption

70 01 .0453% crit
70 22 .9966% crit
70 23 1.0419% crit

Mansch · 10/17/06, 4:13 AM

crit rating formula:

Crit % = -level*7.5%+(6.6/crit rating)

Ok the number are not round but it is a start it will need probably massive tuning. Have fun with it.

• Hamlet · 10/17/06, 8:22 AM

I really thought it would have been more mathematically sound to have the rating required for a 1% benefit increase linearly with level (like they do with Agility now).

Zurai · 10/17/06, 8:51 AM

Personally, I'm trying to wrap my head around why they didn't just make each rating the same number for the same basic effect. In other words, 10 hit rating = 1% hit @ 60, 10 crit rating = 1% crit @ 60, 10 defense rating = 1 defense @ 60, etc. It's gonna be a headache trying to compare relative values between two different ratings already with the actual effects having variable worth without the ratings themselves being variable amounts for 1%.

• Chicken · 10/17/06, 9:08 AM

These numbers were basically decided upon based on the current 'cost' for each of the relative stats. In fact, they're for the most part completely equal. Currently 1% crit has a StatMod of 14, which is also the exact amount of rating needed for 1 crit at level 60.

The only ones that don't match are weapon skill, spell hit and block. But I think all three of those were fairly rare stats back when these values were originally 'discovered' by Hyzenthlei.

In other words, the values were probably chosen for itemization convenience.

• alcaras · 10/24/06, 3:14 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

So, what was the formula that calculates the crit chance from your agility as you level up?
I think I have read it somewhere in these forums, but I cannot find it anymore.
Was it simply 20*Level/60?
Or a more complex formula?

And will this formula still hold true in the expansion?
Meaning, a warrior will need 20*70/60= 23.3 agility per crit and a rogue 29*70/60= 33.8?

Something changed with agility scaling in TBC.

As a warrior at level 60, 20 agility is less than 1% crit -- according to the character panel, it's 0.77%.

This implies ~25.97 agility for 1% crit at level 60... and a rogue tested and found at level 67 ~39 agility for 1% crit.

I'm not sure the new formula is, but it has certainly changed :-/

Morrigan · 10/27/06, 7:34 AM

Btw.
I know it is widely accepted that against lvl 63 mobs/bosses 40% of one's auto attack swings are glancing blows, but where does this number come from and has it been confirmed by further parsing with higher sample sizes?

I'm asking this because I've been saving my combatlogs from our Patchwerk/Loatheb fights since we kill them, and I've run all of them through Wow Webstats. Now, the glancing blow percentages it shows are more in line with something like 45-50%. Of course, that might be coincidence caused by the random number generator, but then again I've yet to see the number to be UNDER 40% which, considering the large amounts of samples, should have happend if the chance really was 40%.

Example
Glancing blow percentages for Rogues here: 54%, 43%, 51%, 49%, 46%, 51%, 44%
Warriors: 50%, 52%, 50%, 52%, 52%, 44%, 58%
and that is not much different from the other logs (altough they tend to be a little bit lower, but nowhere near 40% on average)

I find it hard to believe that the actual glancing blow chance against bosses really is 40%.

• Hamlet · 10/27/06, 8:09 AM

Are you including misses, etc.?

• sp00n · 10/27/06, 8:13 AM

WWS calculates glancing blows over all successfully landed hits.
At least I suppose so, I have noticed values >40% as well, and it seemed to fit pretty well when considering the hit chance of the variuos players.
So it's 40% of only 85% landed attacks (5% dodge and 10% miss), which makes it actually to 47% glancing blows (as WWS calculates it - again, at least I think how it does).
Warriors in general have less +hit alltogether (seeing that they lack a +5 hit talent) and thus their glancing blows numbers are higher.

Morrigan · 10/27/06, 9:11 AM

Umm, ok. That explains it ;)

Regis · 11/10/06, 3:57 AM

Is there any word on how much haste rating you will need for 1% haste at lvl 70? Does it work the same way as crit? 200 haste rating at lvl 70 = 12.7% increased attackspeed?

Drauk · 11/10/06, 4:01 AM

Originally Posted by Regis

Is there any word on how much haste rating you will need for 1% haste at lvl 70? Does it work the same way as crit? 200 haste rating at lvl 70 = 12.7% increased attackspeed?

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/36573662.htm

• sp00n · 12/09/06, 6:43 PM

Bumping this thread as patch 2 is now live.

This is the result of three Patchwer attempts yesterday. Notice that I have 150 hit rating, which results in 15% toHit, leaving me with a miss chance of presumably 9%, yet my actual misses were 13.73% of all of my white attacks, which is a difference of 4.73%. I don't know much about statistics and how likely such an outcome is, yet to me it seems rather odd.

Type:         Amount | Average Damage | % of Attacks | % of Damage per Swing
Misses:          120 |                |       13.73% |
Dodges:           44 |                |        5.03% |
Parries:           1 |                |        0.11% |
Glancing Blows:  368 |         162.19 |       42.11% |    77.51%
Hits:            134 |         209.25 |       15.33% |   100%
Crits:           208 |         412.39 |       23.80% |   197.08%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total:           874 |                |         100% |

Character sheet:

Combatlog:
http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/misc/Patc...ost.patch2.rar

So, did something change with the patch, that bosses have a higher chance to be missed? Or simply a bad coincidence?

As a sidenote, these are my stats for Mutilate:

Type:   Amount | Average Damage | % of Attacks | % of Damage per Swing
Misses:      0 |                |           0% |    
Dodges:      6 |                |        2.97% |    
Hits:      152 |         516.78 |       75.25% |    100%
Crits:      44 |        1147.66 |       21.78% |    222.08%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total:     202 |                |         100% |

Missing around 7% of my critrate, which supports the two roll theory for special attacks.
And my crits were only 222% of my Mutilate hits, whereas Lethality should have brought this to 230%. But maybe just bad luck and/or because the offhand suffers a 50% damage penalty.

Nathariel · 12/09/06, 10:00 PM

I would say its the offhand crits that made the value only 222% of hits, it fits with 50% offhand damage.

In regards to your miss %age is anyone else surprised at how close that seems to be to fitting a 14 hit=1% value?

It may be that it is using the mobs level to calculate what the rating conversion is rather than character level.

• Hamlet · 12/10/06, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Nathariel

It may be that it is using the mobs level to calculate what the rating conversion is rather than character level.

A system which, as I noted in a thread a few days ago, would make a lot more sense.

Fie on bumping this thread--it's so out-of-date :-P . I probably won't update it for quite a while; until everyone's really settled into 2.0 and all we need again is a reference.

vorda · 12/10/06, 7:01 AM

http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/27/qweqwe123123.JPG

a friend asked me today why his AP was +10 lower then expected, I couldnt really aswer his question. I know that the base agi still has the old crit formula, but didnt find anything about AP.
So I decided to make a lvl 1 dwarf hunter. 19 agi, tooltip says '+9 AP'. I assume blizzard just doesnt let the first 10 agi count for you ap?

• sp00n · 12/11/06, 9:09 AM

Studying my recent Patcherk log files to find out my poison proc rate, I found another weird behaviour.

My time on Patchwerk was 394 seconds, my first attack landet 15 seconds after engage (yes, quite a slow kill).
With my weapons at 1.8 and 1.7 speed and constant application of Slice and Dice, my white attacks should have been
(394/(1.8/1.3))+(394/(1.7/1.3))= 585.8 swings, including misses and dodges.
However, after analyzing my log files, I only had 489 swings (again, including misses and dodges).

So that leaves me with three possible conclusions:
a) Mutilate resets your swing timer.
b) Haste effects are calculated against the level of the enemy and not against your own (interestingly, my chance to miss was also higher, see posting above).
c) Something is really bugged at the moment.

The observed 489 swings would more or less match a 10% haste effect of Slice and Dice, instead of the stated 30%.
(394/(1.8/1.1))+(394/(1.7/1.1))= 495.7 swings

Also I just checked my character screen, it still says 1.39 and 1.31 speed for my weapons if I active SnD. Of course this was against a lvl 51 Mob and no boss.

• Hamlet · 12/11/06, 9:23 AM

Slice and Dice is a talent, and shouldn't scale with level anyway.

How well does Rogue theorycraft correspond to reality? It doesn't really, for Mages, until you start including catch-all "casting lag" effects. I know Rogues don't have that issue, but I'm wondering whether you would have expected that computation to match the result of the meters pre-patch.

• sp00n · 12/11/06, 10:35 AM

Actually I just found the combatlog of our first kill on Patchwerk.
There I have 581 swings in 387 seconds.
Same weapons, but I was combat skilled and therefore had blade flurry, which I activated 3 times in that fight.
Without blade flurry, I should have made 575 swings, whereas I did 581, so it seems perfectly in line for me (give or take a *bit* due to lag).

Concerning lag, my performance hasn't significantly changed since the first and the most recent kill. Latency around 100-200ms, FPS around 10-15 on that fight.

Apate · 12/11/06, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Nathariel

I would say its the offhand crits that made the value only 222% of hits, it fits with 50% offhand damage.

In regards to your miss %age is anyone else surprised at how close that seems to be to fitting a 14 hit=1% value?

It may be that it is using the mobs level to calculate what the rating conversion is rather than character level.

14 hit rating = 1.4% hit

14 crit rating = 1% crit

At 60, of course.

Kalman · 12/11/06, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Slice and Dice is a talent, and shouldn't scale with level anyway.

How well does Rogue theorycraft correspond to reality? It doesn't really, for Mages, until you start including catch-all "casting lag" effects. I know Rogues don't have that issue, but I'm wondering whether you would have expected that computation to match the result of the meters pre-patch.

Rogue theorycraft corresponds quite well to damage on a mob like Patchwerk or Ebonroc, once you account for cooldown-related edge effects.

• sp00n · 12/11/06, 11:43 AM

Does anyone have Patchwerk combatlogs after the patch, either combat or mutilate skilled, which I could run through my parser?
At the moment I'm still hoping that it was bad luck meeting strange lag or something.

syr · 12/11/06, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Slice and Dice is a talent, and shouldn't scale with level anyway.

How well does Rogue theorycraft correspond to reality? It doesn't really, for Mages, until you start including catch-all "casting lag" effects. I know Rogues don't have that issue, but I'm wondering whether you would have expected that computation to match the result of the meters pre-patch.

I got around 584 dps on Patchwerk on our last kill. Using a 11/40 build, with aid of pf's spreadsheet I should be capable of maintaining 779.30, now I don't know how accurate his sheet is for the current patch given alterations to equipment etc, but this itself would atleast suggest a large disscrepancy within the current theorycraft model compared to the in-game mechanics. Though, it perhaps is best to also consider that this is unlikely to be based on the correct degree of PW's mitigation and his high dodge rate. However as Kalman say's the theorycraft relates particularly well for us given that we work around a very set and established order of skill usage and energy constrain's usually prevent lag issue's since we can just spam our energy away then wait for it to regenerate. (Also, I do not have a log of my information as I was using some slightly outdated mods that decided to throw errors)

Ofcourse, a degree of the DPS loss I experienced can be considered directly proportional to the resillience rating of the given target, in this case Patchwerk. Sorry for my ignorance but is there any information to offer some guideline as to how much resillience a target has?

25 rating may be equal to 1% resillience at 60 but does that mean each player / mob may start at 300 at level 60 then gain as appropriate from that point, or do mobs have a static resillience level(this seems less likely from an ease of development perspective)?

My character sheet show's myself as having 0 resillience, yet people will generally agree that the crit damage on say, a Scarlet Cleric in Tyr's hand has increased in it's average damage and that a level 63 has a higher value, naturally.

sp00n, I've read the thread on the two-roll theory in the past but what, may I ask, goes to suggest that you would directly lose crit in the theory? Anyone who's even attempted KT (though I'm not sure if you have) enough to get several hundred attack's on the initial mobs, the rogue's "should" be able to get some significant data to produce support for an increase on specials. I was actually going to post some information regarding it yet we only got to KT on the Tuesday (same day US got the patch, day before EU) but in about 2000 worth of swings I was constantly gaining in the region of 7% crit on my SS over my default attacks. I don't know if this is still applying or even if I experienced a significant anomly, hopefully when we get to KT this week (today or tomorrow) I'll be able to get some screenshot's of it.