Elitist Jerks Combat Mechanics, 3.0

05/10/06, 6:22 AM   #31
Gid
Piston Honda

Human Warrior

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Arawethion The order and numbering of the above list are important. Each swing is a pie that totals 100%, and the game fills it up in the order I specified. If the first 7 slices do not total 100%, the leftovers slice is called "Hit." If the total is greater than 100%, the things at the bottom get pushed off the list entirely. Hence, the sum of the 8 probabilities (possibly after truncation) is always 100%, and one roll is made to select the outcome. For example: If M+P+D+B+C+G+U = 70, then H = 30. If M+P+D+B = 100, then C = G = U = H = 0.
If this is correct then with:

Parry: 17%
Dodge: 12%
Block: 26%

You end up with 17+12+26 = 55% of the table/pie already filled. Presumably all you need is an extra 45% block chance (or even less because I haven't taken into account M) to knock the rest like glance, crush and crit completely off the table? That is far lower than the +75% block chance you get from activating the warrior shield block skill. Am I understanding that correctly?

 05/10/06, 9:17 AM #32 Deathwing Bald Bull     Gethol Orc Warrior   Black Dragonflight yes. Gid, that looks right. About glancing blows, I believe it's 15% per level. Plus, the damage reduction is 3% per point of weapon skill until you are within 5 points of their defense. Lastly, I'm pretty sure the 2Hand normalization is 3.3.
 05/10/06, 10:01 AM #33 ♦ Gid Piston Honda   Gideon Human Warrior   Turalyon (EU) If that is correct then in order to be immune to crits and crushing blows with shield block up you just have to scrape together enough parry, dodge and block in total to hit 25% (less in fact when you consider that M would account for a certain percentage too). You could manage that quite easily with fairly poor tanking gear. It also doesn't tally with the idea that 25% base block makes you immune to crits with shield block up.
05/10/06, 10:24 AM   #34
frmorrison
Protector

Ashstrike

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Deathwing Lastly, I'm pretty sure the 2Hand normalization is 3.3.
Thats right.

05/10/06, 11:18 AM   #35
Crowbite
Soda Popinski

Orc Hunter

Mal'Ganis
I might have missed something, but I'm trying to understand the attack roll table

example; A rogue with +13 to hit and +30 to crit means your table will look like this on a lvl 63 mob;
11% chance to miss (24% base miss rate with 2 weapons) + 15% Dodge, parry, block + 40% glancing blows +30% crit + 4% regular attack damage

Is this how it works?

 Originally Posted by missiletoad I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.

 05/10/06, 11:44 AM #36 Deathwing Bald Bull     Gethol Orc Warrior   Black Dragonflight Pretty much. If you want to be really accurate, the level difference also means the mob will have slightly higher percentages of miss, block, parry, and dodge, thus lowering normal hits a bit more. Any rogue should be attacking from behind though, which gets rid of blocks. One thing that might want to be added. Looks like there's been some testing lately about +hit having diminishing returns as you get closer to 0% miss. Anyone else knkow about this? No, sorry, I don't have a link.
05/10/06, 11:53 AM   #37
Navaash
professional amateur

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Arawethion A. Base spell miss chance = {.04, .05, .06, .17} against level {60, 61, 62, 63} mobs. +Hit gear can improve this, but not below .01.
This has always irked me and there's no reason why it shouldn't be changed. Seeing white resists in PvE with huge +hit, especially against mobs that aren't even level 60, is just dumb, while in PvP it can mean the difference between winning and getting your skull crushed.

05/10/06, 12:01 PM   #38
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Deathwing About glancing blows, I believe it's 15% per level. Plus, the damage reduction is 3% per point of weapon skill until you are within 5 points of their defense.
Wait, then, I just realized--of what significance are Glancing Blows against level 61?

05/11/06, 12:09 AM   #39
Von Kaiser

Murloc Warrior

Archimonde
 Originally Posted by Gid If that is correct then in order to be immune to crits and crushing blows with shield block up you just have to scrape together enough parry, dodge and block in total to hit 25% (less in fact when you consider that M would account for a certain percentage too). You could manage that quite easily with fairly poor tanking gear. It also doesn't tally with the idea that 25% base block makes you immune to crits with shield block up.
Thats correct, increasing your chance to block has no bearing on how often you are crit/crushed unless you are wearing very bad gear.

 05/11/06, 12:12 AM #40 dreadnor Von Kaiser   war Murloc Warrior   Archimonde Glancing blows also seem to be possible against lvl 60 twilight avengers/geocallers in Silithus. Anyone else notice this?
05/11/06, 12:25 AM   #41
Von Kaiser

Murloc Warrior

Archimonde
 Originally Posted by Arawethion Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout force the mob to attack you temporarily, but have no effect on threat levels.
Mocking blow tooltip says it generates a moderate amount of threat. Not at home now so I can't double-check it but i'm 95% sure.

05/11/06, 1:08 AM   #42
Kenco
Von Kaiser

Human Warrior

Aman'Thul
Most of this is nitpicking, but...
 Note that a "body-pulled" mob is in a precarious state: its current target has 0 threat, and even things which ordinarily generate no measurable threat (e.g. buffs) can pull aggro.
I think it's more likely that most buffs generate threat, but such a small amount that it doesn't affect normal combat, only the pull. I will claim without proof that bloodrage / berserker rage / battle shout generate threat, but shield block or a HoT (before it has ticked, just the cast) wouldn't pull a body-pulled mob - they truly generate 0 threat.

Actually, i did test this once. Get X to body pull, then Warrior to taunt and do nothing. At the end X will have aggro, but Warrior is clearly on the threat list. Now if Warrior casts shield block, he doesn't pull aggro.

As regards the threat stacking thing, my research has found that some bonuses do stack additively. These are, all together,
Berserker Stance / Battle Stance / Rogue Stance: -20%
Tranquil Air -20%, Blessing of Salvation - 30%
Defiance / Feral Instinct +15%
Arcanist 8/8 -15%

Most of the other bonuses are multiplicative, including nemesis 8/8, netherwind 3/8 (i.e. it acts before the other mods), arcane subtlety, random talent X.

e.g. a Rogue with BoS will generate 50% threat per damage, allowing him to do 60% more damage than without it!

e.g. Mage + BoS + AS + 8/8 Arcanist = (100 - 15% - 30%) * 60% = 33% threat. Well, not for long, thanks to 1.11.

 1 point of HP/Mana healing generates 0.5 threat (0.375 for a Paladin).
Check this. I found 1 point of healing was 0.25 threat for Paladins.

 1) They insantly raise your total threat to be equal to highest person on the mob's hate list at the time the spell is cast.
My experience is that if gives you the threat of the player who has aggro, not the highest. (Otherwise the MT could use it to increase his threat if people were above him).

05/11/06, 1:49 AM   #43
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Kenco Most of this is nitpicking, but... I think it's more likely that most buffs generate threat, but such a small amount that it doesn't affect normal combat, only the pull. I will claim without proof that bloodrage / berserker rage / battle shout generate threat, but shield block or a HoT (before it has ticked, just the cast) wouldn't pull a body-pulled mob - they truly generate 0 threat.
Yeah, that makes more sense (also, I think Bloodrage and Battleshout have recorded threat levels). It seems pretty likely that Fire Ward or PW:Fort or all the other silly things people can do to pull aggro from Firemaw as he's flying towards the raid all have measurable threat levels.

It's good to know that there's no specific rule in place making mobs go after the most recent 0-threat ability caster in a situation like that. Maybe when I'm less busy I'll make a list of things which are safe to cast during a pull.

 As regards the threat stacking thing, my research has found that some bonuses do stack additively. These are, all together, Berserker Stance / Battle Stance / Rogue Stance: -20% Tranquil Air -20%, Blessing of Salvation - 30% Defiance / Feral Instinct +15% Arcanist 8/8 -15% Most of the other bonuses are multiplicative, including nemesis 8/8, netherwind 3/8 (i.e. it acts before the other mods), arcane subtlety, random talent X. e.g. a Rogue with BoS will generate 50% threat per damage, allowing him to do 60% more damage than without it! e.g. Mage + BoS + AS + 8/8 Arcanist = (100 - 15% - 30%) * 60% = 33% threat. Well, not for long, thanks to 1.11.
Actually, as of right now, we are getting flat aggro redux in 1.11. :dance:

Huh, well, that's odd. You're definitely sure about BoS stacking with, say, Arc.8/8 (the data was good enough to resolve 0.55 threat from 0.595)?

 Check this. I found 1 point of healing was 0.25 threat for Paladins.
Okay. The 65% number was pulled off of this board, quite a while ago. Still, 50% threat? With BoS, that makes the 1.9 Pally threat "nerf" pretty meaningless.

 My experience is that if gives you the threat of the player who has aggro, not the highest. (Otherwise the MT could use it to increase his threat if people were above him).
Right, that was just lazy wording.

It's still odd how it works on rooted mobs (Rag considers the high-aggro Hunter his current target for the purposes of Taunt). Does the 10% rule even come into play in a situation like that (where the mob isn't attacking the person who he'd like to be)? Might be good to know if they ever introduce another rooted mob who melees.

Could I get BoP at the beginning of a fight, blow all my timers, and then have the tank Taunt it "off" me (even though it's actually been on him the whole time) before BoP wears off, thus getting a heap of free threat? Seems exactly like the Rag situation.

 05/11/06, 1:56 AM #44 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Also, that means a Rogue with BoS will generate .5 threat, and a Mage with BoS + FrostChanneling/BurningSoul will generate .49 threat.
 05/11/06, 6:08 AM #45 Kenco Von Kaiser   Dershivar Human Warrior   Aman'Thul Here's my data for Tranquil Air + Arcanist 8/8: Shaman does 187 damage to mob, then stops (no TA down). Aggro will change after 187 * 1.1 = 205.7 threat. Mage has TA up. Mages does 315 melee damage (no aggro), then a hit for 3 damage (gets aggro). Therefore his modifier range is from (205.7 / 315) to (205.7 / 318) = 64.7% - 65.3%. This is in range of 65%, and not 85% * 80% = 68%, which supports additive. Interestingly, thottbot seems to know which ones are additive and which not. For the additive abilities there is the effect "Apply Aura: Mod Threat", whereas the multiplicative abilities are "Apply Aura: Add % Modifier (Threat)", i suppose these are kept in the MPQs somewhere.

 Elitist Jerks Combat Mechanics, 3.0