I've heard various numbers floating around about the ranged hit% "cap"; 7.6%, 8%, 9%.
The formula listed here seems to put it an 9.6% against a lvl60 mob.

I currently have +7% hit on my equipment and am 5-39-7 marks spec. I'm curious, because my miss rate doesn't seem to be as high as the 2.6% predicted by this formula (though with lvl60-62s in the mix, it could hardly be accurate). I'm curious as to why this is, whether I am misinterpreting the formula or my data is just bad, and whether or not I should go for some more +hit gear (the new AQ20 cloak is somewhat appealing, if this is true).

For a level 63 mob it should be:
M=5( B )+15*(0.04)+(63-60)=8.6

Going into more details, will something like 2-h spec affect bloodthirst? Only talent thottbot show will certainly affect it is impale, no mention of 2-h spec.

The question come since BT doesn't require a weapon to do and is not related to your weapon at all so I kinda assume it's no.

No, two hand spec will not affect bloodthirst damage because it doesn't require a weapon. And sadly enough (I believe) cruelty doesn't affect it either.

Edit: Oh, maybe I'm wrong. ^^;

It does affect it, yes. I was 20/31 fury build with 5/5 2h spec on my warrior for a while and it certainly increased the bloodthirst damage. Forgot to test if it affected the bloodthirst damage when I was disarmed though :P
Some protection warrior is probably able to say if 1h spec increases revenge/shield slam damage. The mechanics should be the same, so I guess it does.

Edit: Just did some brief testing. 2h spec definetly affects almost every physical damage ability a warrior has. It increased damage on hamstring, mocking blow and revenge. It didn't increase rend damage for some reason, even though the druid equivalent of 2h/1h spec (natural weapons) increases damage on rake and rip.

Looking at the rogue combat sheet and these formulas, specials cannot be glancing blows? Not immediatly apparent in these formulas if it's the case.

Also anyone got a good mathematic way to calculate the uptime on something like crusader? Again looking at the rogue spreadsheet they use a lookup table to determine the uptime based on weapon speed. I need something I can use for a 2-h warrior versus dw for example, the rogue one is just for rogues it seem. Numbers are 24.5% uptime off hand and from 29.5% to 37.4% uptime main hand depending on weapon speed. I guess the weapon speed is important due to slice and dice and would be for flurry.

On the same note, any good way to calculate flurry? Seem a pain to me atm.

Specials cannot glance.

I generated those Crus uptime numbers originally using a Monte Carlo simulator. No one's ever shown me a good enough model of warrior strike generation (I don't really care what kind of strike it is, I just need to know if you hit and what the % to hit on the strike is) to write an equivalent simulator for warriors, though. Getting a formulaic answer out, though, is hard - at best we could generate data points and then attempt to fit a curve through those points.

Incidentally, I should redo those numbers; they were done based on 10% +hit, but vary with +hit, so it might behoove me to do them with varied +hit as well as weapon speeds, to correct for differences in people's gear.

Flurry uptime=1-(1-CritRate)^3 seems to be fairly accurate.

Edit: That's just for white damage.

Just fudge it up a few % to account for instant skills proccing flurry. For white swings it's spot on.

The forumula in english: The chance of being flurried on any given swing is one minus the chance that all 3 previous swings didn't crit.

Semi related question about Crusader:

I seem to recall reading a blue post a while back that stated Crusader proc rate was a factor of weapon speed... that is, the proc rate was lower with a faster weapon, and higher with a slower weapon. I couldn't give you exact numbers, but comparing Thunderfury (1.9) to Ashkandi (3.5), *supposedly* Thunderfury procs Crusader approximately 1/2 as much as Ashkandi due to relative weapon speeds. I guess this turns it towards a ppm (procs per minute) kind of deal, which would in turn mean it would be easier to model the effective 'uptime' of crusader.

Can anyone confirm or deny a varrying proc rate? And, if so - doesn't that effectively make Crusader much more powerful on a slower weapon due to instant attacks (Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, Sinister Strike, etc) increasing effective 'uptime' for a slower weapon vs. a faster one?

Edit: For clarification, when I say that Thunderfury procs Crusader '1/2' as much as Ashkandi, what I mean is (again, making up numbers here) that if Crusader procs on 1/10 auto attack swings with Ashkandi, then it would only proc on 1/20 (or so) auto attack swings with Thunderfury. I have tried testing it several times with weapons of varying speeds, but my results are inconsistent.

Sorry, this seems to have confused me even more.

When you say Crusader is a PPM, you mean that in the length of any 1 minute of time, there are a set number of times that it can proc? Akin to the way that Thunderfury currently works? TF gets weird strings where it will proc 4-5 times at once, and then just stop for a long time b/c of the nature of the proc, but I have never experienced this effect with Crusader (maybe I just wasn't looking for it).


Someone please elaborate, my brain hurts. :(

Let's assume you have a weapon of 2.0 speed, and Crusader is 1PPM.

That means that each swing has a 1/30 chance of proccing Crusader.

If your weapon is 4.0 speed, each swing has a 1/15 change of proccing Crusader.

Haste effects do not change the PPM rate, so, with a 3.0 speed 1h Sword, a Rogue will, with SnD up and sinister striking on every 40 energy, will attack 41 times in a given minute. Since the "chance on hit" is a 1/20 rate, he will get, on average, 2 procs every minute (assuming they don't overlap) or about 30 seconds of uptime per minute. However, he *could* get 41 procs in a given minute, or 0 procs in a given minute. It's random, but the weapon-speed affects the %-procrate.

I think you're implying that TF has a hard cap on procs for one thing. And the consensus from what I've seen is that there's nothing like that there.

PPM is procs per minute is the measure of how procs you're expect to see in 1 minute of just auto-attacking. And what that translates to is a percentage chance to proc on any given swing.

for example, and PPM of 1, for a weapon speed of 3.00 means that any swing has a 1/20 chance of proccing.

edit: this will teach me to not forget to hit submit, then walk away. :O


this is where I got my understanding of PPM: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Procs_per_minute

When we say Crusader is 1PPM, we mean the game starts out looking at your weapon speed and saying "ok, what %chance do I convert to such that someone autoattacking a monster with the enchanted weapon will get 1 proc per minute." It then assigns that percentage chance to proc on any attack made with that weapon. Where the uptime fun comes in is that instant attacks still use the underlying percentage that was assigned under the assumption of just autoattacks. But instant attacks are weapon-speed independent, so you end up getting more out of the enchant the slower your weapon is, because your instants have a higher chance to proc the enchant effect. Likewise, if you do something to speed up your attacks(flurry/Slice and dice), the game still uses the underlying percentage it calculated back when you equipped the weapon, rather than what would actually be 1PPM.

This is why crusader is so good on 2H weapons: you have a slow weapon (so the game translates 1PPM to a high percentage chance to proc), but you're making 40% more "swings" with it than 1PPM would dictate, so it's almost always up.

LurchDawg's got it correct. That's how Crusader is known to work, and that's how it's modeled. One thing he didn't note is that haste effects do not change the chance on hit.

Thanks a lot for that explanation, I had a lot of different information from a lot of different people and now I think I finally understand. :)

Is Lifesteal PPM as well?

Tseric posted some info on crit/int today
What these numbers mean is that each class gets 5 to spell crit from the expected int numbers, so a Shaman has 160/59.5 = 2.6% from int and 2.4% to spell crit base. Mages have .2 to spell crit base.

No Pally info, but interesting if he is right.

(I think Paladins get 29.5 per spell crit with around 2% base spell crit).

wow, that's a much higher ratio than I once thought. I'd have guessed non mages were closer to 30ish int per crit.

Lifesteal is a 6PPM enchant.

Remember that apparently things cannot proc if they aren't hits. I think they can proc on blocks though.

1ppm seem kinda high for crusader and I wonder how much the overlapping or procs affect the final uptime.

If you do a simple % of proc * number of hits per sec * 15 sec, you get something like 50% uptime with a 2-handers that is slow enough. (proc rate is around 6.2% for sulfuras assuming 1ppm) and you can expect hits in the 1 each 2 sec or more with WF and other stuff.

I don't think that in reality something like crusader is up 60% of the time on raids so some kind of diminushing return on uptime the more attack you get to compensate for procs overlaping would be needed. That's where this stuff get complicated unless someone can come up with some real data from the game.

The uptime numbers provided for rogues are accurate for sustained combat situations, and take into account missrate as well as proc overlap.

Don't sign your posts.