Combat Mechanics, 3.0 - Page 5

Thorb · 05/31/06, 3:20 PM

For rogues maybe, but a more general formula would be nice, especially one that can be applied to a warrior DW versus 2-h builts.

Kalman · 05/31/06, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

For rogues maybe, but a more general formula would be nice, especially one that can be applied to a warrior DW versus 2-h builts.

Like I've said to numerous warriors since I did the rogue estimation:

Give me a model for warrior instant strike generation and I can generate similar numbers, but it isn't going to be formulaic, at best it would be a curve fitted to simulated points.

Darkarwen · 05/31/06, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

Remember that apparently things cannot proc if they aren't hits. I think they can proc on blocks though.

1ppm seem kinda high for crusader and I wonder how much the overlapping or procs affect the final uptime.

If you do a simple % of proc * number of hits per sec * 15 sec, you get something like 50% uptime with a 2-handers that is slow enough. (proc rate is around 6.2% for sulfuras assuming 1ppm) and you can expect hits in the 1 each 2 sec or more with WF and other stuff.

I don't think that in reality something like crusader is up 60% of the time on raids so some kind of diminushing return on uptime the more attack you get to compensate for procs overlaping would be needed. That's where this stuff get complicated unless someone can come up with some real data from the game.

I think the whole idea of 'diminishing returns' on procs has basically been mathmatically proven to be a load of BS. Proc rate is based on two things: the inherant PPM of the weapon/enchant (1 for Crusader, 6 for Lifesteal, etc) and the speed of your weapon.

Example: Krol Blade w/ Lifesteal - 6 PPM / (2.8/60) = ~ 30%
Alcor's Sunrazor w/ Lifesteal - 6 PPM / (1.4/60) = ~ 15%

In a situation where a lot of 'extra' attacks are granted (extra being anything outside an auto-attack).. HoJ, WF, SS, instant-attacks, the flat proc % (based on the PPM / auto-attacks per minute) is still applied. The significant change is that you go from 20 attacks per minute to say, 40 - each of which has a 30% chance to lifesteal. So in the course of a minute, you will see 13 or so procs (one every 4.3 seconds or so). With a faster weapon, say Alcor's, your proc rate stays at ~15%. Auto-attacks per minute = 40. If you have the same amount of energy / rage / etc, and gain the same 'bonus' 20 attacks, you are up to 60 attacks per minute at a proc rate of ~15%. This would equate to approximately 9 procs in a minute (one every 6.4 seconds).

Sorry for the messy math, I had to work it out for myself as I was trying to explain it ;) If I am grossly inaccurate as far as logic goes, please let me know.

Edit: The problem with modeling warriors comes from the fact that our attack cycle is dictated by the amount of rage we have (among other things). To model it for strict auto-attacking would be easy, but beyond that the number of times we use Whirlwind, Mortal Strike, etc per minute is directly related to the amount of rage we have.

Two side questions that have probably been answered somewhere, but I can't find them. Can a weapon enchant proc off of a non-weapon based attack (Shield Slam, Bloodthirst, Kick, etc)? Also, in regards to attacks that damage multiple mobs (Blade Flurry, Cleave, Whirlwind) - is the proc chance based on the intial target, or do you get a flat % for each mob damaged?

Thorb · 05/31/06, 4:02 PM

The diminushing return is because crusader is 15 duration and the more you proc, the more you overlap. Not because you proc less.

Kalman · 05/31/06, 4:08 PM

Honestly, it occurs to me that warriors can "translate" to the rogue numbers by way of converting rogue weapon speeds into strikes per second, generating a similar number for themselves, and using the appropriate metric.

Rogue strike per second can be derived as:

(daggers) S/sec = 1/6 + 1.3*(1/mhspd)*(.76 + plushit)
(swords) S/sec = 1/4 + 1.3*(1/mhspd)*(.76 + plushit)

Darkarwen · 05/31/06, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

The diminushing return is because crusader is 15 duration and the more you proc, the more you overlap. Not because you proc less.

I started to do a lot of math, and realized it just wasn't worth it. Saying that more procs = more overlap is messing with statistics, unless you are considering the point after which Crusader is up 100% of the time.

Drauk · 05/31/06, 4:34 PM

Interesting info was posted by Tseric

Originally Posted by Tseric

At level 60, these are expected numbers of INT and points per Crit%

Warlock 200 - 60.6

Druid 192 - 60

Shaman 160 - 59.2

Priest 250 - 59.5

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1#post8532087

• frmorrison · 05/31/06, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Tseric posted some info on crit/int today

Here are some other numbers to that end:
At level 60, these are expected numbers of INT and points per Crit%

Warlock 200 - 60.6
Druid 192 - 60
Shaman 160 - 59.2
Priest 250 - 59.5
(added this on from other post) Mage 285 - 59.5

What these numbers mean is that each class gets 5 to spell crit from the expected int numbers, so a Shaman has 160/59.5 = 2.6% from int and 2.4% to spell crit base. Mages have .2 to spell crit base.

No Pally info, but interesting if he is right.

(I think Paladins get 29.5 per spell crit with around 2% base spell crit).

I already posted this, but it got missed by all that PPM crap.

• malthrin · 05/31/06, 5:40 PM

Copy/pasting from Falka of Feathermoon Alliance on the Warrior forums:

Healer Aggro on Multi-Mob Pulls

Thesis. When healing a player or friendly mob for H points of health (assuming no overhealing), where the player or friendly mob has aggro from N hostile mobs, each hostile mob increases its threat value for the healer by H/(2*N) points of damage worth of threat.

Testing.The tests were performed with a 34 warlock of mine and her Voidwalker. The Voidwalker had Suffering at rank 1, used to generate a fixed amount of AE threat, and my warlock had Health Funnel at rank 3, used for healing. I put my Voidwalker on "Stay" and "Passive" modes near a raptor nest in the Wetlands, body-pulled 1-3 raptors to the Voidwalker, clicked Suffering, then attempted to draw aggro from range using various abilities. I used Damage Meters to measure the damage/healing involved. The Voidwalker did not attack or use Torment; the only threat it created came from its Suffering ability.

Calibration. Thottbot lists the threat of Rank 1 Suffering as 150 (points of damage worth). My warlock has the Improved Voidwalker talent, which increases its threat by 30%; furthermore, since I was operating at range, I had to generate yet 30% more threat to draw aggro. That required me to generate 253.5 points of damage worth of threat. To test that the value was accurate, I pulled two raptors as described above and DPSed one of them with rank 1 Shadowbolts until I drew aggro. I did not get aggro after 247 points of damage, but did get aggro after 264 points of damage, roughly confirming the listed threat value for Suffering. It also confirmed that Suffering's threat does not multiply when affecting more than one target.

Heal aggro. To test heal aggro, I body-pulled raptors as described above, waited until my Voidwalkers health was low enough so that I would not overheal, then healed with Health Funnel until I drew aggro, then stopped healing by stepping back a bit (Health Funnel is channeled). Health Funnel rank 3 heals 43 points of damage per tick for up to ten ticks. A minor complication here is that Health Funnel heals in 1 second ticks, so between reaction time and latency, 1-3 additional healing ticks were generated between the time I noticed that I had gotten aggro and actually stopped healing, creating measurement errors. The expected values of healing needed to draw aggro are 507, 1014, and 1521 points of healing for 1, 2, and 3 raptors having aggro on my Voidwalker, respectively (rounded up to the nearest multiple of 43). Healing meters showed values of 602, 1118, and 1591 points of healing done for 1, 2, and 3 raptors, respectively. This is 1-2 healing ticks more than the expected values, but still appear to corroborate the thesis of how healing threat in multi-mob pulls is generated.

Caveats. Healing threat may be weighted in some way (whether mobs are elite or not, depending on their level, and so forth), which is not apparent without a more varied population of hostile mobs, which I had not readily available for testing.

I was about to look into this myself after a weekend of nonstop tanking SM, particularly an 8-mob pull that I tanked with Demo Shout and Thorns; all my experience as a healer was telling me that I was far behind heal aggro for the incoming damage, but the mobs stayed on me. Falka's write-up pretty much covers it, though.

OP here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1#post1044440

Viluliina · 05/31/06, 6:11 PM

Remember that apparently things cannot proc if they aren't hits. I think they can proc on blocks though.

Afaik this is the case for rogues, atleast i dont remember anything (HoJ/Swordspec/TF/WF) been proccing from dodge, parry or miss. Tested Block one night, and nothing would proc from a block that absorbed all damage, but if the the block didnt block everything and damage was delt to warrior, procs were happening. I must say this wasnt that long testing, so would require some more attention before declaring it as combat mechanic.

However this seems not to be the case with warriors. As you know warriors get the same amount of rage when they hit their target as when their target dodges *or* parries it (so the game checks how much dmg the hit would've done and counts the rage from there). But atleast sword spec can proc for warriors from dodges & parries. Even tho the tooltip says the same as for rogues, "x% chance to get extra attack when dealing damage with sword.
Noticed this few days ago on a duel versus a warrior who came to melee range, hit me with autoattack and i dodged, he gained sword spec from it. I noticed this right on becouse there was nothing else going on but the warrior hitting me with autoattack (we were testing something).
So apparently the warrior SS descreption should read "gives x% chance to gain extra attack whenever you have sword equipped and gain rage or deal damage while sword equipped" (since it procs from stuff like hamstring).

Whiteknight · 05/31/06, 8:03 PM

What happens to the combat roll table when a 100% crit ability is used vs a 100% block ability?

For example - a rogue uses Cold Blood vs a warrior with shield block and more than 25% base block.

• frmorrison · 05/31/06, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

What happens to the combat roll table when a 100% crit ability is used vs a 100% block ability?

If you have 100% to shield block, you will not get critted ever.

Also, Cold Blood attacks can be blocked, dodged, parried, or missed if you don't have enough hit gear.

Kalman · 05/31/06, 8:39 PM

Miss > dodge/parry > block > glance/crush > crit > hit

If the sum of elements on the table goes over 100, you lose from the right side first.

draghkar · 05/31/06, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Miss > dodge/parry > block > glance/crush > crit > hit

If the sum of elements on the table goes over 100, you lose from the right side first.

Then in case of an unstopable force (100% crit ) vs an unmovable object ( 100% block )
you have 0% crit and 100% block ?

Drauk · 05/31/06, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

If you have 100% to shield block, you will not get critted ever.

Also, Cold Blood attacks can be blocked, dodged, parried, or missed if you don't have enough hit gear.

Those 2 statements somewhat contradict each other.

Kalman · 05/31/06, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by draghkar

Originally Posted by Kalman

Miss > dodge/parry > block > glance/crush > crit > hit

If the sum of elements on the table goes over 100, you lose from the right side first.

Then in case of an unstopable force (100% crit ) vs an unmovable object ( 100% block )
you have 0% crit and 100% block ?

Correct.

Whiteknight · 06/01/06, 3:11 AM

So, how would we explain this?

The war receiving the hit has 25.68% block on mouseover in the spell book. Also has 1 point in improved shield block.

Thorb · 06/01/06, 3:42 AM

You don't really understand the hit table.

Say 5 crit rate, the basic hit table is this:

5 miss, 5 parry, 5 dodge, 5 block, 5 crit, (100-miss-dodge-parry-block) = 80 hit.

When you activate shield block, the hit table become:

5 miss, 5 parry, 5 dodge, 80 block, 5 crit, 0 hit since (100-miss-dodge-parry-block = 0).

The hit are resolved from left to right, in this order. By earting from the right he mean that getting 80 block rate will eat normal hits and eventually crit but not miss or parry or dodge since they are more "important".

Whiteknight · 06/01/06, 4:22 AM

Are you sure 80 is the correct value? According to the way I understood the OP post, 25.68 block + 75 block (shield block) = 100.68 % block, so the entire table after dodge should be filled with block. I.e. no crit, glancing, crushing, hit, etc.

Now my test wasn't set up in an amazingly scientific manner, I just grabbed a guild-mate's alt and we went and tried CB + evisc vs. shield block in a duel. Both times we tried it the results were the same - crit eviscerate. Even with an 80% block value, as you've suggested, I'd expect a 5% chance to crit each time, so a 0.25% chance of critting twice in a row as was observed. Seems rather unlikely to me.

Now, I don't know if lag could have interfered with the results (gg background downloader for the 1.11 patch), or if the table works differently for duels vs normal combat or whatever, but something is going on that doesn't seem to follow logically from the conclusions in this thread.

• Shalas · 06/01/06, 4:56 AM

PvP works differently than PvE. For example, blocked crits are possible in PvP.

Maledict · 06/01/06, 6:24 AM

I was just about to say - you can block crits in PvP. The hit tables are different.

When we were messing round with the shield block to negate crits thing, we tested at first with rogues on our warriors, and have clear logs of Cold Blooded crits being blocked. Maybe it's a cold blood thing, maybe it's a pvp thing, but there's definitely a difference between that and PvE.

Bullbrain · 06/01/06, 6:33 AM

Crits can definitely be blocked in PvP.
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?im...61700086to.jpg

As far as I know. there is no evidence suggesting the same in PvE.

Whiteknight · 06/01/06, 7:01 AM

That would explain a few things.

Do you happen to know if +def reducing incoming crit rate also behaves differently in PvP? I'm reasonably sure I get critted substantially more from lvl 60 players than lvl 60 mobs considering my +def.

♦ Gid · 06/01/06, 7:12 AM

When I originally heard of this the first thing I did was run out and try it in a duel with a rogue using cold blood. Of course I very quickly established that it doesn't work the same way in PvP :) I am still not convinced about the exact damage table explanations for why it works in PvE but I have yet to see a situation where:

- I have greater than 25% shield block innately
- I activate shield block
- I get crit by a mob

And that is with months and months of logging behind it. Even when my defence is reduced by 100 thanks to unbalancing strike off the Twin Emps I have still never been crit with shield block up and more than 25% shield block innately. I would really like to get a solid reason as to why this works because it kind of hamstrings gear choice in some situations. Certain pieces cannot be removed if you want to get the effect.

Energy · 06/01/06, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Gid

because it kind of hamstrings gear choice in some situations. Certain pieces cannot be removed if you want to get the effect.

It is my understanding that the 25% innate mitigation can be a combination of Dodge, Parry and Block. You don't need 25% innate Block, it might just as well be 10% Dodge, 10% Parry and 5% Block. I don't think this limits you in gear selection.