That's the point wodin. How often are you getting crit/crushed? Crit and dodge should be the only things in the table. If you can push your dodge past 85% (is that reasonable, I don't have a rogue), either dodge or crit is getting dropped from the table. Unforunately, record keeping for 19 seconds every 5 mins is going to blow building up a large sample, unless you can get up to 95% dodge or so. Take 5-6 rogues to mag and let them each take shots and get rezzed for 15 minutes one night.
85%? With evasion of course (50%) that would mean we'd have a base dodge of 35%. That's pretty high. 45% base dodge, is retarded high, and I'm quite sure that's impossible with full raid buffs even. And I think Wodin's point is that once you take out the Hit factor from a mob, all you're left with is Crit/Crushed or Miss. Remember that dodge only makes Hits a Miss, and doesn't affect Crits. With only 300 defense a rogue get's crit a LOT by level 63 mobs. I don't know what the exact numbers are but I'm sure a warrior has that info somewhere about the percentage of crits per +defense.
.04%.
300 def, rogues get crit by level 63s 5.6% of the time (5% base, 15 skill over def, 15*.04 = .6%) and crushed 15% of the time. Getting dodge over 80% with Evasion is very, very easy.
And, having fucked around on CTProfiles... a rogue can get over 50% unbuffed dodge.
So, here's a question: putting that crap together, when a rogue pops evasion... is he crushed or critted at all? If he drops a few pieces off to leave, say, 1% left with Evasion up: is it crush or crit that takes its place?
Shouldn't happen.
Remember, there is still the chance to miss (4,4% for a level 63 mob against a 300 def rogue) and the chance to parry (4,4% + talents/equipment). So in addition to your dodge rate, you also have at least a 8,8% chance to evade through miss/parry.
So in theory you would need only 100-50-4,4-4,4= 41,2% dodge rate without evasion.
I'm confused by the combat calculations:
Against level 63: 24.6% miss +5.6% dodge +5.6% parry +5.6% block +40% glancing = 81.4%
so 81.4% - my 12% to hit = 69.4.
My crit is 33.56, so that's 32.96 vs level 63: 69.4 + 32.96 = 102.36 so I guess I should never hit the mob, always crit or have my attack mitigated, but that is not what happens.. I see plenty of hits, so maybe someone could tell me where im going wrong with this O_o
Thats because most likely you are attacking the mob from the back.
Attacking from behind gets rid of parry and block, thus giving you 11,2% more chance to hit.
Moreover, your chance to miss of 24,6% for dualwind is of course affected by yout +toHit items/talents.
Of which you should have quite a bit, 8-15%, if you really plan to dual wind.
Also remeber that you will notice glancing blows only in your combatlog, or with addons specifically created for this. Normally they appear as simple white melee hits.
Right.. I factored in the 12% to hit that I have already in that calculation.
That makes sense.. 11.2% more.. so I guess if I went to backstab which would gain me 30% more crit, I would crit everytime? and most of my crit gear would be useless?
300 def, rogues get crit by level 63s 5.6% of the time (5% base, 15 skill over def, 15*.04 = .6%) and crushed 15% of the time. Getting dodge over 80% with Evasion is very, very easy.
And, having fucked around on CTProfiles... a rogue can get over 50% unbuffed dodge.
So, here's a question: putting that crap together, when a rogue pops evasion... is he crushed or critted at all? If he drops a few pieces off to leave, say, 1% left with Evasion up: is it crush or crit that takes its place?
Shouldn't happen.
Remember, there is still the chance to miss (4,4% for a level 63 mob against a 300 def rogue) and the chance to parry (4,4% + talents/equipment). So in addition to your dodge rate, you also have at least a 8,8% chance to evade through miss/parry.
So in theory you would need only 100-50-4,4-4,4= 41,2% dodge rate without evasion.
Wow, I stand corrected on the dodge numbers. Even still though, if you look at the first post in the thread you will see that you can't have a crit miss, parried, or dodged. It either crits or it's a normal attack with whatever percent to be dodged, parried, blocked, or simply miss. So having all that +dodge simply means you won't catch any non-crits. Instead you'll catch the 20.6% of the mobs swings and they will all be crits and crushing blows.
Wow, I stand corrected on the dodge numbers. Even still though, if you look at the first post in the thread you will see that you can't have a crit miss, parried, or dodged. It either crits or it's a normal attack with whatever percent to be dodged, parried, blocked, or simply miss. So having all that +dodge simply means you won't catch any non-crits. Instead you'll catch the 20.6% of the mobs swings and they will all be crits and crushing blows.
Correct.
If you do not reach 100% avoidance through dodge, parry and miss, but are above 94,4% avoidance, thus leaving the 5,6% crit rate of a level 63 mob, the only thing that will go through is a crit.
Wow, I stand corrected on the dodge numbers. Even still though, if you look at the first post in the thread you will see that you can't have a crit miss, parried, or dodged. It either crits or it's a normal attack with whatever percent to be dodged, parried, blocked, or simply miss. So having all that +dodge simply means you won't catch any non-crits. Instead you'll catch the 20.6% of the mobs swings and they will all be crits and crushing blows.
Correct.
If you do not reach 100% avoidance through dodge, parry and miss, but are above 94,4% avoidance, thus leaving the 5,6% crit rate of a level 63 mob, the only thing that will go through is a crit.
Keep in mind that a full-blown sword/combat spec will most likely have another 5% parry. Facing the mob, shouldn't you only need 36.2% dodge to have 100% mitigation (35.2% dodge w/ a Maladath)? I'll have to campaign to tank Onyxia someday to check.
This is would explain how dumb people like me are able to evasion tank Chromaggus when we resist 2 timelapses in a row and our vanish isn't up (37.6% unbuffed dodge vs. a level 60, 10% base parry).
Quick question: Does the extra damage done from innate mob vulnerabilities (Drakanoids, Ossirian, et. al.) generate threat? Non-innate vulnerabilites (Shadow Weaving, Curse of Elements)?
Edit- I could have sworn I had read about this somewhere here or on this forum, but I haven't been able to find anything yet. Nothing on WoWWiki as far as I can tell, too.
It's noticably harder to hold aggro on a frost or fire vulnerable death talon than it is on a nature vulnerable one. I'd presume hate works off the absolute amount of net damage done, regardless of whether it came from a vulnerability of any kind, crit, normal hit, etc.
Keep in mind that a full-blown sword/combat spec will most likely have another 5% parry. Facing the mob, shouldn't you only need 36.2% dodge to have 100% mitigation (35.2% dodge w/ a Maladath)? I'll have to campaign to tank Onyxia someday to check.
This is would explain how dumb people like me are able to evasion tank Chromaggus when we resist 2 timelapses in a row and our vanish isn't up (37.6% unbuffed dodge vs. a level 60, 10% base parry).
So in theory you would need only 100-50-4,4-4,4= 41,2% dodge rate without evasion.
Of course, if you have the 5% extra parry, you would need only 41,2-5= 36,2% dodge. ;)
It's noticably harder to hold aggro on a frost or fire vulnerable death talon than it is on a nature vulnerable one. I'd presume hate works off the absolute amount of net damage done, regardless of whether it came from a vulnerability of any kind, crit, normal hit, etc.
Wow, I stand corrected on the dodge numbers. Even still though, if you look at the first post in the thread you will see that you can't have a crit miss, parried, or dodged. It either crits or it's a normal attack with whatever percent to be dodged, parried, blocked, or simply miss. So having all that +dodge simply means you won't catch any non-crits. Instead you'll catch the 20.6% of the mobs swings and they will all be crits and crushing blows.
I'm not sure I follow here. With 50% base dodge, plus 50% evasion dodge, not even the crits/crushes would be left in the table, you would simply be missed, parry or dodge every single swing from the mob. This is assuming the priority is that from the OP. That is, you can't dodge a crit, but crits aren't determined separate from dodges, so conversely, you can't crit with a dodged swing. And dodge has higher priority than crit in filling up the roll table.
More plausible, in my opinion, is that crit/crush has priority over dodge and parry for mobs attacking players, as suggested in the shield block discussion. I.e. Block > crit/crush > miss,parry,dodge > hit. Then it would indeed take 100% block to not ever get critted. And you would not be able to lose that 20.6% crit+crush by gaining dodge or parry. It should not be too hard to verify this, if anyone cares to do it.
Well, if people are looking at this again, may as well note a few things I can think of off the top of my head:
--Your 5SR regen factor can no longer go above 1. No more abuse of Mage Armor + Evocation or Blue Dragon + Innervate.
--For the entire section on threat, you should probably just go look at Kenco's thesis on the subject instead.
--More accurate spellcrit numbers for some classes have been given somewhere by a Blizz rep.
My GM was giving his healers a hard time for their overhealing, and was mentioning that overhealing generates it's own threat. I posted in our guild forums about how overhealing is *definately* not good, but it doesn't generate threat, due to the fact that threat is only gained relative to the amount of HP healed, and pointed him to this thread for reference.
His response was:
If it is on the internet, if MUST be true. Don't believe everything you read.
So can anyone point me towards a link where the non-threat-generating overhealing mechanic has been tested? Or could anyone with a little time on their hands explain how this has been tested?
I was trying to think of a way to test this myself. I'm a rogue, and was thinking if I brought a warrior up to Winterspring to farm firewater with me, we could test it together. If I body pull a mob while I'm at ~20% health, but don't attack it and have my warrior friend taunt it off, after 3 seconds of neither of us attacking it, if I stand within melee range and quaff a Major Health Pot/Bandage myself, I will pull aggro off the warrior, right? And then, if we try the same thing, except this time I'm at 100% health so my Pot/Bandage are overhealing, I won't pull aggro, right?
EDIT: Or, the taunting bit is kind of redundant, isn't it? The warrior can just body pull.
My GM was giving his healers a hard time for their overhealing, and was mentioning that overhealing generates it's own threat. I posted in our guild forums about how overhealing is *definately* not good, but it doesn't generate threat, due to the fact that threat is only gained relative to the amount of HP healed, and pointed him to this thread for reference.
His response was:
If it is on the internet, if MUST be true. Don't believe everything you read.
So can anyone point me towards a link where the non-threat-generating overhealing mechanic has been tested? Or could anyone with a little time on their hands explain how this has been tested?
I was trying to think of a way to test this myself. I'm a rogue, and was thinking if I brought a warrior up to Winterspring to farm firewater with me, we could test it together. If I body pull a mob while I'm at ~20% health, but don't attack it and have my warrior friend taunt it off, after 3 seconds of neither of us attacking it, if I stand within melee range and quaff a Major Health Pot/Bandage myself, I will pull aggro off the warrior, right? And then, if we try the same thing, except this time I'm at 100% health so my Pot/Bandage are overhealing, I won't pull aggro, right?
EDIT: Or, the taunting bit is kind of redundant, isn't it? The warrior can just body pull.
Just have a Warrior at full HP pull some really lame mob, and then overheal away. As a control, do the same thing with him starting at low HP, to get a feel for when you pull aggro.
Hmm ok. Or I could pop evasion at 100% health, body pull a lvl 5 boar outside Orgimmarr, and not do anything else but have the healer try to pull aggro off me by overhealing. And as a control I could just do it again without evasion, so that once I got hit for 1pt of dmg the healer would pull aggro.
Hmm ok. Or I could pop evasion ar 100% health, body pull a lvl 5 boar outside Orgimmarr, and not do anything else but have the healer try to pull aggro off me by overhealing. And as a control I could just do it again without evasion, so that once I got hit for 1pt of dmg the healer would pull aggro.
Anyways, thanks.
No need for fancy stuff like this. You don't need to prove that Overhealing causes no aggro, you just need to prove it generates nearly no aggro. Bring the Boar down to 50% unarmed. Have the Priest attack it once unarmed (to get on the threat list). Then have the Priest spam Gheals on himself. See if the overheal ever pulls aggro.
It seems that to every rule there is an exception (and perhaps trying to fit these extremely rare incidents in a comprehensive theory about combat mechnanics isn't really even necessary). In any case, I just experienced (and screenshotted, and verified from the screenshot) my first ever (that I noticed) blocked PvE crit on thaddius. Of course it's possible that this was just a combat log fluke - a freak accident that happened in the strained/lagged situation.
I'd love to see that blocked PvE crit as well.
On a side note, on the last AQ run I have encountered quite a few parried backstabs. Shrugged them off as lag though, as my latency was around 250 then.
07/27/06, 3:52 AM
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