10% stamina is huge, and is definitely something I could see guilds requiring a few warriors to have, and Blizzard basing their encounters around, which goes against their previous philosophy.
Titan Flasks don't influence encounter design, even at the pve highend.
I'd disagree with you there. While I don't think may have forseen guilds using flasks so frequently, they unintentionally balanced raids around them. They saw people beat things like Firemaw, Nefarion, and the Emps using them and said "Hey, they're beatable, no need to tone them down" whereas if every tank had 1200 less health, they may have made changes.
The same thing could apply with this talent. They won't balance an encounter assuming a warrior has X health, but they'll throw in a boss that does a bunch of spike damage and if people beat it, great. If not, they'll adjust the fight. Tanks having more health may lead them to not adjust a fight.
Granted 10% isn't THAT much, but it's enough to be where if your tank keeps dying to spike damage you'll want him to respec to at least 20 prot.
I don't understand your point. Your MT will be full prot. X% of your warriors will have Y in prot, and both of these values will be the exact same in 1.11 as they are in 1.10. Conceding that 10% more health is something they would balance encounters around, all future bosses will just be tuned to this and fight difficulty will be exactly the same. This has nothing to do with raid design, it just gives warriors a warm fuzzy feeling to know that they're not wasting talent points.
All I see this influencing is the strength of class roles in relation to each other, not the strength of individual class roles themselves. You have slightly less motivation for using bear tanks. Shrug.
Granted 10% isn't THAT much, but it's enough to be where if your tank keeps dying to spike damage you'll want him to respec to at least 20 prot.
...
Yes, if your tank is not 31 in prot that would probably be detrimental to your advancement. This isn't new in 1.11. It might be a little more detrimental now, but I'm not really in arrears over what guilds with non-prot warriors tanking go through.
Yes, if your tank is not 31 in prot that would probably be detrimental to your advancement. This isn't new in 1.11.
It is though. In the live version, the only protection talents that increase survivability are shield spec, toughness, improved shield block, and last stand. (It could be argued to that anticipation and iron will do as well, but to a much lesser extent).
Going beyond those all the way to shield slam doesn't do anything for survivability, just utility and threat. Your raid is generally hard pressed to notice much of a difference between someone with 15-16 in protection, and someone with 31.
X% of your warriors will have Y in prot
Actually it'll be likely be Y+5. Since this is shifted to 20 points in prot, which isn't that big of a deal, just means that many warriors will have to choose between 10% health and 5% crit.
I'm not complaining as it's a net gain no matter how you look at it. As a matter of fact, their original philosophy was "we plan on assuming there will be a few reasonably specced protection warriors in a 40 man raid group" and that still holds true.
I fail to see why people (including a warrior in my guild, who was just complaining about this on ventrilo) would expect to be the best possible tank and have mortal strike.
In addition people are overlooking the Shield Slam buff. Without details it's certainly possible that it could rival Mortal Strike.
That could easily go one of several ways... base Shield Slam damage changed or unchanged? What speed is the shield normalized at, or is it a % of attack power?
Shield Slam would only need a few hundred damage to rival Mortal Strike and could make PVP with a Jagged Obsidian Shield an interesting option. And if anything it would encourage more warriors to abandon Mortal Strike.
It would be great if the changes to Shield Slam made the damage / threat it produced scale with the quality of the shield you were holding. That would make the talent future proof in a way that it is not currently, especially with the type of weapons we are likely to see in Naxx.
Slam your target with your shield causing 137-143 damage, modified by attack power, and has a 50% chance of dispelling 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a high amount of threat
That's rank 1. I wonder if the damage range is what's possible based on your AP, or if it's that damage PLUS whatever the modified AP amount is. If it's that damage +AP stuff, that's pretty sweet.
Copy and pasting myself from SA forums. My math might be shoddy, but I don't think so. This is stuff culled from a couple posts, so it might sound jumbled. Sorry for that.
Tooltip shows 137-143, an average of 140. Talented skills show rank 1 in the tree, so that's compared to the current rank 1 average of 320. It's 43% base damage of what it used to be. Assuming it scales consistently with the old shield slam (not necessarily a safe assumption), and the top rank of the new shield slam would be an average of 215.
Assuming that it scales like that, and that it is normalized like a 2.3 speed weapon, you would need a whopping 1734 attack power to average the 500 currently averaged on shield slam.
Based on that, I would guess it is treated as a slower weapon (if it were treated like a 2h, you would only need 1208 attack power) or it will scale to higher base damage that it currently does. Otherwise it would basically be a nerf, since that is a LOT of attack power to be asking of anyone, especially a D spec warrior.
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the new rank 1 is 43% of the damage of the old rank 1, so I made the (quite possibly incorrect) assumption that it would scale like that for other ranks. The current top rank is an average damage of 500, and 43% of that is 215.
The difference in the average damages is 285. In order to make that much damage up, you need a hefty chunk of attack power, which is why I said it leads me to believe my scaling assumption was wrong or it was an indirect nerf for levels 60s. I suppose a level 70 prot warrior might have retardo amounts of attack power, who knows.
Edit: I looked at the scaling problem another way. There is a
56.25% increase from rank 1 of old shield slam to rank 4 of old shield slam. This would make the base damage of new shield slam in the range of 219 instead of 215.
1710 atk power for this method at 2.3 speed normalization as compared to 1735 for my old method. Negligible change.
1192 attack power is the shield is counted as a 3.3 speed, as compared to 1209 on my old calculations.
Conclusion: doesn't matter which way I look at scaling, at 2.3 speed normalization, you're gonna need more attack power than a DW fury warrior to break even with new shield slam. This leads me to believe it will scale up faster, or will get buffed. Assuming they WANT to buff shield slam. Otherwise, this is just fancy words for a nerf.
Of course, someone can answer my question by looking at rank 4 instead of rank 1.
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Hope that makes sense taken out of context. It should.
Another possibility is that it is normalized at six seconds, since that is the cooldown. This is highly improbable in my estimation, but the you would only need 665 attack power, if I am understanding your math correctly.
It doesn't seem entirely outlandish--it would basically work a lot like Bloodthirst. Also, since they're retuning the ability anyway, we have no idea whey might fo with the threat generation.
If that is correct then they have reduced the rage cost of it from 30 down to 20 which is a nice improvement. I'm not so keen on them modifying the damage with attack power though unless the attack counts as a very slow one.
As you can see it is rank 4 Shield Slam, and its damage range is 195-205
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Currently, against an unarmored target, shield slam generates:
(250 base threat + 500 average damage) * 1.3 defensive stance modifier = 975 threat (divided by 30 rage, 32.5 threat per rage point).
Assuming you reached the 1.11 break-even point for attack power, giving your new Shield Slam exactly as much damage as the old one, but at a lowered cost:
(250 base threat + 500 average damage) * 1.3 defensive stance modifier = 975 threat (divided by 20 rage, 48.75 threat per rage point).
Of course, most of the wonderful aggro shield slam COULD create is heavily mitigated by target's armor. Assuming 50% DR:
(250 base threat + 250 avg dmg) * 1.3 = 650 threat / 30 = 21.7 threat per rage.
vs
(250 base threat + 250 avg dmg) * 1.3 = 650 threat / 20 = 32.5 threat per rage.
For reference, untalented Sunder Armor is 261 * 1.3 = 339 threat / 15 rage = 22.62 threat per rage.
Talented, it's 261 * 1.3 = 339 threat / 12 rage = 28.275 threat per rage.
Even if shield slam's damage didn't increase, this is a MASSIVE gain to the skill - shield slam was only useful as a snap-aggro tool and didn't generate more threat per time unit or threat per X amount of rage than sunder or HS did. Now it's going to be worth using on a mob that's already stuck on you for even more threat (of course, depending on mob armor and if you have Imp. Sunder or not).
Also this could provide another benefit, depending on the specifics of the attack power threshold. If a warrior could actually do respectable damage with a shield in 1.11, it would open up protection warriors for a bit more pvp/self defense viability in much the same way the priest and druid changes did.
It could act in a similar fashion to Bloodthirst, that being the damage done is a percentage of your attack power.
Thats how i hope it scales. Ill quote one of the warriors from our forum:
Rank 4 is 195-205 + ap. Much tighter damage range = good. Sorta. You will end up by doing a nearly constant amount of damage with it, which I guess is the point? Only problem is, to match the existing Rank 4 (450-550), you need around 1750 AP. So I'm going to bet it will be %AP based, not speed-related. If I had to throw a number out there: 30% AP + 195-205. Puts it roughly on par with MS and BT.
Not only would this increase the threat generated and fix some of the threat scaling issues we have currently, but as Sekdar said it would give Prot warriors a little more PVP Viability with a 31 pt talent.
They could change the way shield slam generates threat to a druid-centric version that applies a threat multiplier to the total damage instead of a "base threat + damage threat". This would be a very compelling reason to spec prot to get the only warrior threat ability that scales like a druids.
It could act in a similar fashion to Bloodthirst, that being the damage done is a percentage of your attack power.
Thats how i hope it scales. Ill quote one of the warriors from our forum:
Rank 4 is 195-205 + ap. Much tighter damage range = good. Sorta. You will end up by doing a nearly constant amount of damage with it, which I guess is the point? Only problem is, to match the existing Rank 4 (450-550), you need around 1750 AP. So I'm going to bet it will be %AP based, not speed-related. If I had to throw a number out there: 30% AP + 195-205. Puts it roughly on par with MS and BT.
Not only would this increase the threat generated and fix some of the threat scaling issues we have currently, but as Sekdar said it would give Prot warriors a little more PVP Viability with a 31 pt talent.
I'm fairly certain that the new Shield Slam is going to do only 2/3 of the damage of the old Shield Slam with current gear, given the rage reduction. But the "bonus hate" is probably unchanged, meaning it is a better talent overall, and one that will continue to get better, instead of continuing to get worse.
05/11/06, 9:49 PM
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