Protection warriors are at best very bad in 5 man content
at this point yeah, there's not much point in having a warrior with epixx whip out a shield for 90% of 5man content, but I got most of my 1-60 xp from tanking instances, and when doing lower level instances grouped with pubbies and wearing blues/greens things like 8 second cooldown taunt and even Improved Revenge actually help a ton. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same in the expansion, I'm actually considering respeccing prot once the expansion hits (or maybe before then, depending on what we need for naxx)
Protection warriors would absolutely rock in PvP if the devs could get over one sacred cow and allow taunt to work on players. You could limit this to protection warriors by making it part of improved taunt, 50% at Rank 1, 100% at Rank 2.
The main problem with protection spec is that it only makes you effective in 50% of WOW.
Depending on how you set your % it's probably alot less then 50%.
It's not usefull in instance in general it's usefull in raid instance and only if you tank.
I mean once the expantion get out I'll wager that doing 5 man content will be important again for alot of people (at least for a while). Protection warriors are at best very bad in 5 man content. They will be bad at solo leveling, at solo quest doing, etc.
I feel like I should throw out that our guilds Mt has returned to pvping, and is an absolute monster. Just because he doesn't OMGCRITLOL doesn't mean he's ineffective. A wrath'd-out prot tank is nigh unkillable as flag carrier or defending an AB node. He can also solo something like 5 of the EPL Elves at the same time without significant health loss.
I don't mean to suggest prot is perfect, but people seem to be implying it's a raid only spec, which is misleading.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
50% was just a general statement, and is probably mostly personal. 50% being instances/raiding, and 50% being pvp. Sure, some people grind and what not, prot isn't that great at that either, but pve grinding is a pretty trivial thing to me, so meh.
And as far as prot being useless in 5 mans, I disagree with that as well. Back in the day when DM came out, I was mostly blue equipped and prot spec, and it was fine for 5 mans. Only problem now with five mans is that with all epics and so much armor it's really tough to get rage in scholo/strat/ubrs etc. But that's fairly meaningless since you outgear those places so much.
Basically the whole point of my post is that protection doesn't really need much of a boost for pve, because it's already fine there, the help it needs is in pvp, so warriors who spec protection to tank for their guilds don't feel the need to respec for pvp, or roll an alt of another class to pvp.
Formerly of Immortality on Skullcrusher
Formerly of Lost Anarchy on Ner'Zhul
Currently inactive, but might try out WOTLK, but then again...
However, I disagree because I think prot. warriors played right can be extremely effective in pvp or pve (aside from tanking). Of course it's not going to be as fun as critting someone for 2k with a dark edge, but they provide a lot of utility (particularly in group pvp) and can be challenging to play. Also 1h-spec isn't as useless as some might find, I can slap on an off-hand and some good +hit gear and compete quite favorably in any instance contributing DPS (as well as having the added survivability). Depends a lot on how you spec -- but with cruelty, improved HS and gearing similar to how a fury warrior would, you can be quite effective.
I admit I did a lot of my pvping while ranking with MS, and now I just do it for fun -- but I don't feel useless by any stretch while doing it now with a prot.-based build.
Well of course that's a pretty big plus, but I think having a Crul, Maladath or whatever (as most tanks would do) and pairing that with a suitable offhand would still be very effective. As with fury it's extremely gear dependent (probably even more so), so if you don't have the gear to supplement it then it's obviously going to taper off. However, I think if you want to make a concerted effort to have fun with your spec in addition to tanking (instead of saying oh god I suck at pvp) -- there is the gear out there to utilize.
Oh, I agree with the 1h spec and the dps thing, i've done that before too, and could do quite respectable dps. But that really doesn't work too well in pvp as prot, since you need to swap to shield to bash silence or slam, and many times there just isn't time to swap.
Mainly it's an oppurtunity cost thing IMO... Sure prot might not be completely useless in pvp, but compared to MS or even fury it is viewed as such. Stunning or silencing can't be compared to outright killing someone. You basically give up a huge chunk of possible damage output for very little returns in survivability, utility, or CC ability. If they fixed either the damage output, or the survivability, many more warriors besides raiding guild MT's would spec protection.
And as far as WSG flagrunning, good luck doing that if the other team has 3 casters of any type. They will kill you unless you burn shield wall. We have a priest with the ZG trinket that reduces cast time on gheal, so 1.5 sec gheals. He was spamming that on our full wrath equipped prot spec MT in WSG, and 2 mages burned him down anyway thru all of that. GG. And for guarding a flag in AB, ya, ok, hope it's not a mage or hunter trying to cap, cause they will CC and cap if you're solo or have no dispeller there with you. That's not a prot thing tho, that's just a warrior thing. Warriors make poor defenders due to the ease with which they are CC'd.
Formerly of Immortality on Skullcrusher
Formerly of Lost Anarchy on Ner'Zhul
Currently inactive, but might try out WOTLK, but then again...
The problem with that discussion is that people have a very queer vision of pvp. Group pvp, even in AV, is best done by people who solidify their roles in a fight. A very hard to kill flag runner, with strong healers and good burst dps backed up by CC is how to win most pvp matchs. If not all. You focus people on the hard to kill person while the other people do their roles. You troops come out of it alive and capping, will the other side wanders around or dies like fools.
And in that, I agree with Moz - Prot is great.
But if your idea of PVP is smashing on people at the 'zerk hut, no, prot is terrible in pvp.
And as far as WSG flagrunning, good luck doing that if the other team has 3 casters of any type. They will kill you unless you burn shield wall. We have a priest with the ZG trinket that reduces cast time on gheal, so 1.5 sec gheals. He was spamming that on our full wrath equipped prot spec MT in WSG, and 2 mages burned him down anyway thru all of that. GG. And for guarding a flag in AB, ya, ok, hope it's not a mage or hunter trying to cap, cause they will CC and cap if you're solo or have no dispeller there with you. That's not a prot thing tho, that's just a warrior thing. Warriors make poor defenders due to the ease with which they are CC'd.
This is different from any other flag runner how? 3 Arcane Mage power mages popping trinkets will kill anybody, that has nothing to do with strengths or weakness of prot in PvP. In fact prot warriors are probably the only class that could live through that with Last Stand or Shield Wall. It'll be even funnier next patch when MT's have a ton of good Frost Resistance gear.
And as far as WSG flagrunning, good luck doing that if the other team has 3 casters of any type. They will kill you unless you burn shield wall. We have a priest with the ZG trinket that reduces cast time on gheal, so 1.5 sec gheals. He was spamming that on our full wrath equipped prot spec MT in WSG, and 2 mages burned him down anyway thru all of that. GG. And for guarding a flag in AB, ya, ok, hope it's not a mage or hunter trying to cap, cause they will CC and cap if you're solo or have no dispeller there with you. That's not a prot thing tho, that's just a warrior thing. Warriors make poor defenders due to the ease with which they are CC'd.
Max rank GH with +500 healing from gear is 1600 HP/S.
Are you trying to imply that there is someone who could survive taking enough damage to outburn 1600 hp/s? Or are you trying to say that because two AP mages can randomly gib ANYONE, Prot tanks are suddenly bad at flag running?
Increasing a protection warrior's damage by a large amount (10+ percent) means increasing his threat on raids and in groups (PvE) by a large margin. It's not an easy fix.
Based on player feedback, the devs did a little more adjusting to Shield Slam. The newest version will do more base damage, and increase damage based on shield block value rather than attack power. The rank 4 version does 342 to 358 damage plus the value that the shield blocks for.
This is a good change (formerly AP modified), since tanks have around 100 shield block value.
So the damage on the new ability may be a little less than the old, but the 20 Rage cost balances it out nicely.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
This change could be good or bad. If it's the shield's block value, then that isn't very much added damage, since the best shields like ERB and blessed qiraji bulwark have block values of 54 and 55. Now, if it's YOUR total block value, that's a larger boost, since I typically block for 196 with 5 wrath/3 might. A full DN equipped warrior with the new block trinket will block for like 251, or 486 with it active.
Only problem is non epicced out warriors, this doesn't scale much at all for them if it works like this, since there isn't any +block value gear until might and wrath. Personally I thought AP would be a better way to scale it, since AP is very easy to buff. They just needed to up the speed modifier to 3.0 or so, so it would have scaled a little better.
Guess we'll have to try this out to see what's what.
Formerly of Immortality on Skullcrusher
Formerly of Lost Anarchy on Ner'Zhul
Currently inactive, but might try out WOTLK, but then again...
Only problem is non epicced out warriors, this doesn't scale much at all for them if it works like this, since there isn't any +block value gear until might and wrath. Personally I thought AP would be a better way to scale it, since AP is very easy to buff. They just needed to up the speed modifier to 3.0 or so, so it would have scaled a little better.
Guess we'll have to try this out to see what's what.
It fills a different role for different gear levels. For blue-geared small group tanks, it's a "mini" slam - reduced rage, reduced threat off of the old slam, making it easier to work into a low-rage tanking environment. For a raid tanking scenario, it's a scaling rage dump (assuming it goes off of modified block value). It seems pretty well thought out. Add some appetizing talents to climb from 15 -> 30 and Prot may have it's groove back.
Group pvp, even in AV, is best done by people who solidify their roles in a fight..
We actually on my server horde side have a tier 2/2.5'd warrior with Ashkandi who tanks just fine in PvP.
Yes I did mean that. Essentially the Alliance kiddies are all so stupid and so "LOLZ LOOK ITS KICH WITH ASSKANDI QUICK DPS HIM" that he just tanks for the entire raid in AV while getting healed by about 12 healers. It's actually funny to watch.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,
Group pvp, even in AV, is best done by people who solidify their roles in a fight..
We actually on my server horde side have a tier 2/2.5'd warrior with Ashkandi who tanks just fine in PvP.
Yes I did mean that. Essentially the Alliance kiddies are all so stupid and so "LOLZ LOOK ITS KICH WITH ASSKANDI QUICK DPS HIM" that he just tanks for the entire raid in AV while getting healed by about 12 healers. It's actually funny to watch.
That works well for a while, up until the point you're fighting a group that's a bit more intelligent. If they'd just allow protection warriors to taunt pvp targets (put it as 50% per point on improved taunt), they'd be a huge tactical benefit to any group pvp situation.
That works well for a while, up until the point you're fighting a group that's a bit more intelligent. If they'd just allow protection warriors to taunt pvp targets (put it as 50% per point on improved taunt), they'd be a huge tactical benefit to any group pvp situation.
As a Rogue who loses combo points when he swaps targets, I dislike this idea immensely.
I definitely prefer the idea of having talents that provide more "resistance" (not really resistance, but survivability in the face of) non-physical damage, such as many of the talents they've been throwing at other classes recently (the Shaman "Spell Warding" talent is a perfect example of this).
Shield Slam being dependent on shield block value will be helpful, and should reduce several of my colleagues' weekly-to-monthly respec costs for when they feel like hitting the battlegrounds seriously.
All in all, though, from the standpoint of a Rogue: One of my guild's MTs respecced prot (6/11/34) from a 0/32/19 weird-hybrid-build yesterday. His aggro-generation and survivability with fairly decent, but not superb, gear (http://ctprofiles.net/1021717) jumped quite a bit, compared to his previous spec. Maybe it has a placebo effect on the tank's play, as well, but things seemed to be dying much easier, and with fewer "stupid mistakes" than we've had in the past.
Vitality would be a huge help to the Protection Tree, given that both Hunters and Warlocks get +-% stam or + % stam for spirit tradeoff in their trees, but I can't really figure out, with the same trouble that Blizzard had, just *where* I'd put it in the tree.
I agree that Protection Spec could use some help in PvP. Then again, there are many "raid builds" in this game that aren't entirely suitable for PvP, and a Thunderfury/Cardoor/5+Wrath Prot-specced warrior that I encounter in WSG on occasion is one of the toughest flag-runners I've had the "pleasure" of trying to take down. Granted, this is dependent on having healers, but with Blessing of Freedom (yes, I went there) and a couple HoTs on him, he's virtually unstoppable. Maybe they could make Shield Slam's "Purge" effect more reliable, given that it's a 31 point talent, but I really don't know.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
From a group/raid PVE perspective the change makes perfect sense, but it doesn't seem quite right for PVP (when not defending/running flags) or solo PVE where you'll be wearing DPS gear completely devoid of +block modifiers. It's going to be a case of shield slam doing less damage when you're wearing gear to increase your overall damage. :blink:
All in all, though, from the standpoint of a Rogue: One of my guild's MTs respecced prot (6/11/34) from a 0/32/19 weird-hybrid-build yesterday. His aggro-generation and survivability with fairly decent, but not superb, gear (http://ctprofiles.net/1021717) jumped quite a bit, compared to his previous spec. Maybe it has a placebo effect on the tank's play, as well, but things seemed to be dying much easier, and with fewer "stupid mistakes" than we've had in the past.
I thought the note of a placebo effect was interesting, and has enough meritt to be highlighted. It is my strong belief that people who spec to their 'role' enter into it with a staunch mindset that in turn makes them better at whatever it is they are trying to do. Resto druids, Holy Priests, Protection Tanks... are better at those roles half because of spec, and half because of mindset. At least, in my opinion. ;)
From a group/raid PVE perspective the change makes perfect sense, but it doesn't seem quite right for PVP (when not defending/running flags) or solo PVE where you'll be wearing DPS gear completely devoid of +block modifiers. It's going to be a case of shield slam doing less damage when you're wearing gear to increase your overall damage. :blink:
I don't see why it's all that bad. Now instead of sacrificing a good chunk of survivability (using more DPS gear) to do moderate damage, you can keep your survivability high and still do that moderate damage. Remember, Str = AP and Block Value. Dreadnaught has Str, Block, and High Stam, the three stats a Prot warrior will want to focus on even in PvP. The pieces without Block or decent Str could even be scraficed for some FR/SR to offer more survivability against those mages/warlocks/shadow priests.
After playing around with the new shield slam on test last night for our Noth runs, it seems pretty nice, especially considering that the warrior ZG enchants are still borked on test, which would add another 30 shield block/shield slam damage. I was getting crits on the stoneskin gargoyles for over 1k damage in battle stance.
If they REALLY wanted to make shield slam scale well, but still do roughly the same damage, they would base it off attack power AND block damage to go with a base damage.
Like say, rank 4 base damage is 180-195 + attack power normalized at 2.2 speed (1k attack power gives 157 damage) + your character's block value (varies depending on gear, but will be 251 with full dreadnaught)
This would give you 603 damage for shield slam with the best gear available at 1k attack power. At 1500 attack power, which is reachable with raid buffs and still in tank gear, you get 681 damage for shield slam. Considering that prot spec basically doesn't get the good damage modifiers like enrage or impale (impale + prot is kind of a weak spec, since you can't get full cruelty, and your crit rate in tank gear is poor anyway) shield slam will still not be able surpass MS or BT given equal gear, but it would still scale well over time, like arms and fury.
I'm glad that the devs seem to finally be looking at warriors and the protection tree, since it needs help. Here's what the goal should be IMO: A protection spec warrior decked out in full tier 3 with a good 1h wep and shield, like say The Hungering Cold + Face of Death, should be able to hold his own in pvp against more than just rogues without cooldowns and other warriors when thier opponents are decked out in similar level gear. Someone who spent all the time needed to get all that gear shouldn't be as weak as they are currently vs other players, simply because of spec.
Formerly of Immortality on Skullcrusher
Formerly of Lost Anarchy on Ner'Zhul
Currently inactive, but might try out WOTLK, but then again...
All in all, though, from the standpoint of a Rogue: One of my guild's MTs respecced prot (6/11/34) from a 0/32/19 weird-hybrid-build yesterday. His aggro-generation and survivability with fairly decent, but not superb, gear (http://ctprofiles.net/1021717) jumped quite a bit, compared to his previous spec. Maybe it has a placebo effect on the tank's play, as well, but things seemed to be dying much easier, and with fewer "stupid mistakes" than we've had in the past.
I thought the note of a placebo effect was interesting, and has enough meritt to be highlighted. It is my strong belief that people who spec to their 'role' enter into it with a staunch mindset that in turn makes them better at whatever it is they are trying to do. Resto druids, Holy Priests, Protection Tanks... are better at those roles half because of spec, and half because of mindset. At least, in my opinion. ;)
We have a warrior in our raid, he's a nub. He is spec'd fully into prot, (however i don't know his build), At least i can say he has 31+ pts in prot.
Then there is me. I am 0/34/17, With bloodthirst and all the various fun talents from Fury. I can hold aggro as well, if not better, than him. I doubt its really a matter of build, however i get lots of passive bonus's while tanking (flurry, enrage), vs his active bonus (shield slam). I am of course assuming I have enough rage. Our gear is nearly identical with 5+wrath and 2+ might. However, he is still a nub and can't tank more than one target.
However this effect gets carried thru when we do MC after he randomly respec's back into DPS (he refuses to do hybrid builds since that is "Half-Assing" it), and he refuses to tank because "he's not prot spec'd". Instead we have the fury warrior do it.
We have always found our Fury Warriors to be better at gaining aggro than our Protection specced tanks - if they weren't, there woudl be a significant problem with the aggro system, as people would be able to dps without ever worrying about aggro.
Protection offers surviveability more than aggro - the 15% from defiance is generally there just to counteract the lower dps threat you do from being protection. As a Horde RL, my heal groups do feel that it's easier keeping one of our 2 protection tanks alive on fights like Broodlord, Firemaw, Chromaggus and Nefarian compared to our DPS warrior builds. (in equivalent gear).
05/26/06, 3:57 PM
in EJBSG 17 (soundtrack)
Similar Threads
