Guild Management and Leadership - Page 3

◊ Praetorian · 05/16/06, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Brilliance

Originally Posted by Mosh

What I was getting at essentially, was this: The way you described your guild structure, it seems to me like it would cause a lot of negativity and disputes. First of all there's just figuring out who "deserves" the raid slots more.

No one deserves a raid spot in DnT, thats your misconception. Those who get to go to AQ are those who earned their spot.

You deserve nothing, you earn everything.

Who makes the ultimate decisions, though? Say you have 43 people online at the zone at start-time. Who decides the 3 that sit out?

hamlet · 05/16/06, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by XI-

We've found the most useful solution to the various topics you posted is raid slot pressure. Recruit such that no one person, or group of people is essential to your raid. This forces everyone to bring their best every time or *gasp* you don't get to raid. It also gives you flexibility, and versatility. We never stop raiding because X tank, or priest didn't show up. Someone else does the job, and the raid progresses as usual.

I am curious, in the past I remember you stating that you had a period where you barely had enough to do any raiding due to the fact that you kept the guild at as small of a group as is reasonable(early BWL if memory serves me correctly). Was slot pressure feasible at that period of time or is slot pressure a manifestation of those issues you had?

Ciaras · 05/16/06, 2:06 PM

Yeah, my question is along the lines of what Gurg is saying. If someone earns the spot, and the means for choosing the spots are 100% fair and don't ruffle any feathers, it either has to mean that the people in your guild are amazingly willing to sacrifice for others, or that you have some objective way to determine who goes and who doesn't. If the way is objective, how do you do it? Raid Attendance i guess, but that doesn't quantify skill, only how much free time you have. If the way is subjective, how do you keep people from biting each other's heads off to get into raids?

Brilliance · 05/16/06, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by Brilliance

Originally Posted by Mosh

What I was getting at essentially, was this: The way you described your guild structure, it seems to me like it would cause a lot of negativity and disputes. First of all there's just figuring out who "deserves" the raid slots more.

No one deserves a raid spot in DnT, thats your misconception. Those who get to go to AQ are those who earned their spot.

You deserve nothing, you earn everything.

Who makes the ultimate decisions, though? Say you have 43 people online at the zone at start-time. Who decides the 3 that sit out?

We have 5 officers with some pretty good heads on their shoulders. They know who should be there, and who should not. They know what the raid needs, and who should be there.

Originally Posted by hamlet

Originally Posted by XI-

We've found the most useful solution to the various topics you posted is raid slot pressure. Recruit such that no one person, or group of people is essential to your raid. This forces everyone to bring their best every time or *gasp* you don't get to raid. It also gives you flexibility, and versatility. We never stop raiding because X tank, or priest didn't show up. Someone else does the job, and the raid progresses as usual.

I am curious, in the past I remember you stating that you had a period where you barely had enough to do any raiding due to the fact that you kept the guild at as small of a group as is reasonable(early BWL if memory serves me correctly). Was slot pressure feasible at that period of time or is slot pressure a manifestation of those issues you had?

It was a manifestation due to our BWL short-coming. We wanted to make sure we didnt fuck up AQ like we did BWL.

Originally Posted by Ciaras

Yeah, my question is along the lines of what Gurg is saying. If someone earns the spot, and the means for choosing the spots are 100% fair and don't ruffle any feathers, it either has to mean that the people in your guild are amazingly willing to sacrifice for others, or that you have some objective way to determine who goes and who doesn't. If the way is objective, how do you do it? Raid Attendance i guess, but that doesn't quantify skill, only how much free time you have. If the way is subjective, how do you keep people from biting each other's heads off to get into raids?

Thats a question I simply cant answer. I have no idea how we all get along (somewhat, we have our fights and bitchfests, but who doesnt) Probably people know when they should // shouldn't be in the raid. I honestly dont know.

Mosh · 05/16/06, 3:05 PM

To Ascent/DnT: Do you use any form of rotation at all, or will the same team play night after night if they continue to be more qualified than the people who aren't among the lucky 40?

Digo · 05/16/06, 3:27 PM

We track attendance by 30 day, 60 day, and 90 day.

Recent raid attendance, experience with the mob in question, gear, talent spec. Those are all factors I use when determining what warriors, for instance, sit out on C'Thun or Emps if we have more online than there are slots allocated for them in the raid.

We start with 90 day attendance % to fill intitial raid spots, and then go by above factors if needed.

Another thing Delheru mentioned to me was enthusiasm shown by the raid/guild leader. If the leader is not enthusiastic about a fight, the guild will do shitty as a whole on that fight, almost without exception.

Our previous raid leader was a smart guy, but mostly apathetic and uninspiring. He all but brushed off the world dragons, which ended up hurting us for AQ, just because he personally found them frustrating and didn't care. This all goes back to something my dad told me when I was a kid.

Enthusiasm. Learn to fake it and you've got it made.

So now, even on nights where I'd rather be working on tax returns than raiding, I act like the raid is better than sex. I can't possibly think of anything else I'd rather be doing than killing the mob in question. The raid responds to it in kind and we generally make progress. Obviously, enthusiam is a more intangible quality and not something that can be taught, but only learned through observation and practice, which only makes it more valuable.

Sunder · 05/16/06, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by hamlet

Anyways this was off topic but I think as long as GLs live with this belief that their guild will be special they will stand amongst the hordes they will be dissapointed in WoW.

A brilliant point. I think the uber-EQ guilds have a rather scewed view of why they held their status in EQ. The uber EQ-guilds were full of skilled people, but that alone was not enough to ensure their position on the server. Due to no instancing at all, they were forced to use tactics that would make most true Machiavellis squeel with glee. They held their status because they were able to field the necessary people to make sure noone else had a reasonable shot at progression. Now that those artifical restrictions have been removed, we actually see that the uber-EQ guilds didn't have the exclusive hold on skilled people they thought they did.

Since they are now realising that, they want to scream that WoW raiding is somehow "easier" than EQ. I laugh at such a notion. After raiding in EQ for five years through PoP, and some of GoD, I can honestly say EQ was not "harder" than what we have in WoW today. EQ just forced more people to fight over much more limited content than we have in WoW.

The ubers in EQ weren't that way just because they were skilled. It was a combination of things, that I generally place most of the blame on the Developers of EQ for. The top guilds in EQ just did what they had to do given the circumstances. You can't blame them for that. What I will hold them to, however, is continueing to think they are so much better than everyone else without acknowledging why they held the status they did, and the artifical means they were forced to use to secure that position.

Some of them are taking this lesson well. Others are not.

Ciaras · 05/16/06, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Brilliance

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by Brilliance

No one deserves a raid spot in DnT, thats your misconception. Those who get to go to AQ are those who earned their spot.

You deserve nothing, you earn everything.

Who makes the ultimate decisions, though? Say you have 43 people online at the zone at start-time. Who decides the 3 that sit out?

We have 5 officers with some pretty good heads on their shoulders. They know who should be there, and who should not. They know what the raid needs, and who should be there.

Originally Posted by hamlet

Originally Posted by XI-

We've found the most useful solution to the various topics you posted is raid slot pressure. Recruit such that no one person, or group of people is essential to your raid. This forces everyone to bring their best every time or *gasp* you don't get to raid. It also gives you flexibility, and versatility. We never stop raiding because X tank, or priest didn't show up. Someone else does the job, and the raid progresses as usual.

I am curious, in the past I remember you stating that you had a period where you barely had enough to do any raiding due to the fact that you kept the guild at as small of a group as is reasonable(early BWL if memory serves me correctly). Was slot pressure feasible at that period of time or is slot pressure a manifestation of those issues you had?

It was a manifestation due to our BWL short-coming. We wanted to make sure we didnt fuck up AQ like we did BWL.

Originally Posted by Ciaras

Yeah, my question is along the lines of what Gurg is saying. If someone earns the spot, and the means for choosing the spots are 100% fair and don't ruffle any feathers, it either has to mean that the people in your guild are amazingly willing to sacrifice for others, or that you have some objective way to determine who goes and who doesn't. If the way is objective, how do you do it? Raid Attendance i guess, but that doesn't quantify skill, only how much free time you have. If the way is subjective, how do you keep people from biting each other's heads off to get into raids?

Thats a question I simply cant answer. I have no idea how we all get along (somewhat, we have our fights and bitchfests, but who doesnt) Probably people know when they should // shouldn't be in the raid. I honestly dont know.

You guys are pretty lucky then. It's pretty rare, when we live in such an entropic kind of world, to find such a carnal system that still manages to balance itself out. I'm having issues with my guild at the moment, mostly due to the fact that I feel like I lack common ground with a lot of my fellow guild members, if for no other reason than that they haven't taken the time to research their class, min/max themselves, PvP to help gain versatility, etc.

I think that common respect that DnT (and almost all the other of the 80 to 90 cream of the crop raid guilds) players have for each other, knowing that you're the best of the best and that dead weight will be dropped off the side like needless ballast helps people stay sharp and appreciate the skills of people around them. There is nothing, at least that I have run up against in this game, that frustrates me more than seeing someone who is undergeared relative to me, and hasn't taken the time to learn their class take a spot from me and not help the raid as much as i feel i could. If that frustration could be taken away, I would reluctantly, but respectfully give a spot if I thought they were going to help the raid in a way that my skills couldn't, which is probably part of the answer to the question I asked.

Edit: Assorted Typos

Kytrarewn · 05/16/06, 4:03 PM

DnT and the other "big-name" guilds have a sort of prestige, I think, that helps keep that sort of atmosphere viable. EJ doesn't recruit, so they don't require that type of atmosphere, and people are comfortable where they are, but they still manage to get the shit done. That's one tenable type of raid atmosphere.

People reroll on Shattered Hand Alliance in the hopes of getting into DnT or Drama, and the splash causes other very viable guilds to form. Either guild could probably recruit anyone from any of those guilds at the drop of a hat. This causes a competitive type of atmosphere, where people do their best to avoid having someone else come in to replace them. I haven't looked at the guild progression chart on Shattered Hand recently, but I imagine that there are numerous guilds working AQ who have experience through Huhu, at the very least, so the threat of replacing someone, or recruiting a replacement isn't "well, they don't have my gear, so you'd be regressing". This is another type of tenable atmosphere.

IMO, as long as people show up and give their best to the raids, either atmosphere can be an enjoyable situation in which to play, and people will contribute to the success of the raid/guild as a whole.

• Tehax · 05/16/06, 5:00 PM

Originally EJ raid slots were given to the 40 people who were fastest with thier "/w Gurgthock Invite/dragon/kazzak" macros.

It was a pretty awesome system.

Leviandan · 05/16/06, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tehax

Originally EJ raid slots were given to the 40 people who were fastest with thier "/w Gurgthock Invite/dragon/kazzak" macros.

It was a pretty awesome system.

This is exactly how we did it for ages as well :D I liked it, because I'm a fast typer, but those who didn't type as fast as others didn't like it. So now we use a simple signup system on our DKP site. First come first serve.

Delheru · 05/16/06, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mosh

To Ascent/DnT: Do you use any form of rotation at all, or will the same team play night after night if they continue to be more qualified than the people who aren't among the lucky 40?

Depends on a lot of circumstances.

Usually we rotate a fair bit, the exceptions occur for a bunch of reasons:
Mob X is hard to kill, we've been at it for a while - we choose a mix of the best and those who've actually been at the mob. This is true especially if it's close to death.

Other than that, we usually have people who have something better to do anyway, so there are plenty of volunteers to sit out.

Twid · 05/16/06, 6:22 PM

When I start a raid, I invite the other 7 class leaders and promote them. They each then invite 4 more of their class, or less in the locks/druids case, and more in the warrior's/priests case. If there aren't enough to fill the raid due to the other classes not being around to raid, we then open it up for class leaders to invite more than their allocated class spots. If it's full, anyone who didn't get in the raid goes on standby outside the instance (or most commonly logs onto an alt) until spots free up, or if they don't want to fill in for people that leave, they go off and do whatever they want, but those outside the instance get first dibs on standby slots.

Standby spots are typically brought in to replace same class roles (ie: dps for dps, heal for heal) to keep class balance.

◊ Praetorian · 05/16/06, 6:23 PM

Usually I let members of each class work out attendance themselves, given a target number of how many people I'd like in the raid from that class. There are no "class leaders" or anything of the sort -- it's all consensus-based, and usually for anything but the newest of content, there are plenty of people willing to play an alt or do something else unless and until they are needed. If they can't decide or people are being stubborn then I'll decide for them, but that rarely happens. If it's a special occasion (as Delheru just noted, possible first kill or an early kill of a hard boss we don't have on farm status yet) then I'll make sure to hand-pick the group for the most part.

Twid · 05/16/06, 6:26 PM

Yeah, we've felt the need to have class leaders, because for some reason when cross class loot drops, the rogues, hunters, and warriors all start looking at each other with blood lust in their eyes. The priests and paladins are much more passive agressive in their mutual disdain. (Pallies in dresses and all)

*edited for redundancy

Delheru · 05/16/06, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sunder

Originally Posted by hamlet

Anyways this was off topic but I think as long as GLs live with this belief that their guild will be special they will stand amongst the hordes they will be dissapointed in WoW.

A brilliant point. I think the uber-EQ guilds have a rather scewed view of why they held their status in EQ. The uber EQ-guilds were full of skilled people, but that alone was not enough to ensure their position on the server. Due to no instancing at all, they were forced to use tactics that would make most true Machiavellis squeel with glee.

Of course - the politics was always way harder than the actual encounters, though those caused some difficulties as well. I always considered myself by far a better politician than I was a raidleader, a fact which showed well in EQ and later in the AQ Gate event.

On the other hand I only say that (that I'm a better politician) because I always considered politics the tougher side - raids can only be so complex, and even raiding success comes down to manipulating people inside and outside the guild to create the correct atmosphere. If you have 40+ hyped up people wanting to kill something (and KNOWING they can do it), you're fucking up pretty bad as a raidleader if you aren't getting shit killed.

Now that those artifical restrictions have been removed, we actually see that the uber-EQ guilds didn't have the exclusive hold on skilled people they thought they did.

Oh I doubt any of the guildleaders harbored such illusions, though the political side ended up dumping a LOT of great players on our laps - actually like 6 top end guilds collapsed. Alas, people keep rising to the occasion, so whenever someone joined us, someone new grew in to a position of leadership where they had to develop a analytical style of thinking etc.

Especially without the recruiting power gained by having the power to destroy rival guilds, I don't see any huge reason why Ascent would have had better players than the other guilds on our EQ server. The same is true on Medivh, except the majority can't app to us (being alliance) and I don't really see why people from the #2 guild would bother, unless they're seriously uncomfortable in it.

What I will hold them to, however, is continueing to think they are so much better than everyone else without acknowledging why they held the status they did, and the artifical means they were forced to use to secure that position.

I'd say EQ (PVE) was somewhat restricted war. (I'd say UO was downright war)
By comparison WoW is like a fencing tournament.

So I'd say yeah, the winners of the wars might not be the best fencers, but I must say I prefer the war to the fencing.

XI- · 05/16/06, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jagermaestro

Originally Posted by Mosh

To Ascent/DnT: Do you use any form of rotation at all, or will the same team play night after night if they continue to be more qualified than the people who aren't among the lucky 40?

Usually this isn't much of an issue for us, since most of the people in our guild tend to have a job/life outside of WoW, and average around 70% attendance vs. 100%. That said, if someone busted his ass on every single AQ learning attempt, he's going to get a slot over someone that hasn't unless he's not online. For our first C'Thun kill, we strongly favoured people that had been going hard for the past week over people that just recently started showing up again since they knew a kill was imminent.

Showing up on time is also a means we use to pick compo. If we're allocating 6 spots for warriors, and only 6 are online when we start the raid, those 6 will get in. If 20 minutes later some top-dog logs on, he'll sit until we either a) have someone log off, thus opening up a spot, or b) absolutely need him and make room for him by booting someone (fairly rare, probably only for something like the Emps or C'Thun). Furthermore, if people screw up on raids we'll replace them if we have anyone else outside. This is another example where having a large guild shines; it will keep people on their toes knowing that there are 10 people outside eagerly wishing they your spot.

These days, we have a lot of apathetic members that don't really give a rats ass about AQ due to the beta-testing we got to do on it having our gates opened first, so we don't necessarily have a dozen people outside the zone dying to come play with the random number generator on the Twin Emps (though I think we all unanimously agree that C'Thun is the fucking bomb). Naxx and Tier3 lewtz seems to have generated massive interest, on the other hand, and we already have many old people that quit coming back to the game. These people are now at the bottom of the barrel as far as raid selection goes, but it's very healthy for the guild having them there since it forces new members to be on their A-game in fear of losing their spots in favour of an old member that just came back.

This is typically the same way our rotation works. Very few of your players attend 100% of the time, so with ~60-65 raiders, we typically have between 5-8 who don't get into the raid, depending on what class they are, etc that day. Thus the rotation works itself out.

As for Jager's second statement, we actually had very little of this, because we actively discouraged it. We don't really care if you like AQ or not, show up. We have a rank in our guild, Casual, originally created for people's friends, etc. We more recently extended it to people who we do not feel are working hard enough (haven't had to use this yet), or do not show up enough, or go on extended breaks. You basically lose your loot, and raid slot priority, for a period of time, and after that, if the officers feel you have earned your status amongst the rest of us you will be promoted again.

DnT and the other "big-name" guilds have a sort of prestige, I think, that helps keep that sort of atmosphere viable. EJ doesn't recruit, so they don't require that type of atmosphere, and people are comfortable where they are, but they still manage to get the shit done. That's one tenable type of raid atmosphere.

People reroll on Shattered Hand Alliance in the hopes of getting into DnT or Drama, and the splash causes other very viable guilds to form. Either guild could probably recruit anyone from any of those guilds at the drop of a hat. This causes a competitive type of atmosphere, where people do their best to avoid having someone else come in to replace them. I haven't looked at the guild progression chart on Shattered Hand recently, but I imagine that there are numerous guilds working AQ who have experience through Huhu, at the very least, so the threat of replacing someone, or recruiting a replacement isn't "well, they don't have my gear, so you'd be regressing". This is another type of tenable atmosphere.

An interesting thing I noticed lately. I looked at our raiding core, and I noticed, we've never lost a core member to another guild since I've been with DnT. Not one. We lost a few people from other top guilds within 1-2 months of their joining, usually because they were guilted back, or they were playing another class and found they didn't like it as much, but the core of people who were their when I joined, are still in the guild.

Sunder · 05/16/06, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Delheru

I'd say EQ (PVE) was somewhat restricted war. (I'd say UO was downright war)
By comparison WoW is like a fencing tournament.

So I'd say yeah, the winners of the wars might not be the best fencers, but I must say I prefer the war to the fencing.

Perhaps you will enjoy it more here then. Seems more like your cup of tea.

syr · 05/16/06, 8:38 PM

On another note of leadership since EQ is being brought up so much. I've played SWG among other MMO's so I have no real experience of the "uberguilds" within EQ but I've learnt alot about them over time.

Alot of Ex-EQ players run around in wow spouting all kinds of nonsense on the basis that they raided for 5 years in a good EQ guild. I've very frequently seen people saying such things as "I know what I'm talking about I played EQ" almost as though they automatically expect to gain the respect of people they had in the game. A lot of people here may have come with a guild from EQ to WoW, so in such an instance you would be able to continue respect for each other but it is a scale of respect that cant really exist in WoW. A good leader could carry a guild/group sofar in wow but ultimately you need a strong team to prevail through encounters and other than officers no set "leader" is required.

Uberguilds in other games I know were in a situation where their members could dedicate time slots to running "shifts" of farming an area/dungeon so that the guild would pretty much always have control over the entire server. Such control justisnt required in wow aside from the world/server/guild first opportunities, the loot quality isnt at a point whereby losing out on a kill could mean real trouble for your guild. I doubt loot orientation will ever be as strong in WoW.

A big problem that often occurs in my experience is people just arent confident enough about their own ability to apply. Then you can get some complete retard's applying because they dont have the sense to realise they're not good enough.

I'm going to reserve judgement on paid transfers. Perhaps thats something for another topic..

Bubba · 05/16/06, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by syr

A big problem that often occurs in my experience is people just arent confident enough about their own ability to apply. Then you can get some complete retard's applying because they dont have the sense to realise they're not good enough.

This is definitely true on our server where there are 7+ Horde AQ40 guilds and a 1:1 faction balance. We get 101 people applying that shouldn't even be allowed into PuGs, and then when we hear from guys saying 'well I didn't think I was good enough', it turns out they have ten times the competence of your average copy-paster.

XI- · 05/16/06, 10:55 PM

One EXTREMELY important point for WoW, that I think hasn't been touched here is alts. Make a policy, make it firm, and stick to it. There's nothing that will destroy a guild fast than a merry-go-round of alts parading through your raids with no controls.

Now, personally I despise the idea of switching your main, and alt, unless the guild needs it. Basically you're wasting the time, and effort your guild members put into your "main". Perfect example, we have probably 3 or 4 ex-mains with rejuvenating gem, which we haven't seen since, 2/26. If I were to make a policy that allowed this, it would look something like this. If you change your alt to your main, for a reason other than at the request of the guild because they are in need of that class, and feel you can adequately fill it, you will have 50% of your lifetime earned DKP, subtracted from your current DKP. In addition you won't recieve an invite to a raid, until we feel your gear is up to par with the other members of the class you are moving too.

Now we don't have a rule like this, although I've campaigned for one, but by now it's basically just done by raid slot pressure, you can change your main to whatever you want, but you won't get in any raids so good luck. We did finally standardize our loot priority so that it goes Mains > Initiates > Alts > Casuals, since the initiates vs alts was a point of contention for a bit.

◊ Lord BEEF · 05/16/06, 11:02 PM

I'm curious to see how far Blizzard will take towards "skill based" raid encounters.

It could easily be done. Take a mob and give him abilities very similar to Dark Glare, Deep Breath, Plague, and Ignite Flesh. Make the boss use abilities once every 30-60 seconds instead of every 45 seconds so you can't have a mod time it. Make every ability have a visual cue before it gets cast but (if possible) something that you can't make a mod to warn you about. Now all of your raid has to pay attention all of the time.

It'd be very interesting to see who would still claim the firsts on that kind of encounter, and what guilds simply wouldn't have what it takes.

The problem with this is that it makes it so you'd have to turn people away from your raids despite how much time and effort they've put into it just because they're not good enough at video games. MMOs have generally been kind to the reflex impaired and its not the best idea to alienate those people.

Bubba · 05/16/06, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by XI-

We did finally standardize our loot priority so that it goes Mains > Initiates > Alts > Casuals, since the initiates vs alts was a point of contention for a bit.

We have the same system, but for the few guys that have switched their alts/mains, they lost ALL their points, and regardless of their status in the guild, dropped back to initiate loot priority until we deemed fit. This discouraged the 'i just want different epics' stragglers, and the guys that genuinely wanted to switch to a different class stuck it out and are now some of the best members of that team.

Re Beef's idea : I was thinking of combining Geddon and Shazzrah - having a boss that blinks every 30-45 seconds, after which he aoe's but instead of normal damage, it makes anyone it touches a 'mini' bomb with the same effect as Geddon's. Would certainly spice up either of those encounters (though that's not exactly saying much).

◊ Kalman · 05/17/06, 1:18 AM

Originally Posted by XI-

One EXTREMELY important point for WoW, that I think hasn't been touched here is alts. Make a policy, make it firm, and stick to it. There's nothing that will destroy a guild fast than a merry-go-round of alts parading through your raids with no controls.

Now, personally I despise the idea of switching your main, and alt, unless the guild needs it. Basically you're wasting the time, and effort your guild members put into your "main". Perfect example, we have probably 3 or 4 ex-mains with rejuvenating gem, which we haven't seen since, 2/26. If I were to make a policy that allowed this, it would look something like this. If you change your alt to your main, for a reason other than at the request of the guild because they are in need of that class, and feel you can adequately fill it, you will have 50% of your lifetime earned DKP, subtracted from your current DKP. In addition you won't recieve an invite to a raid, until we feel your gear is up to par with the other members of the class you are moving too.

Now we don't have a rule like this, although I've campaigned for one, but by now it's basically just done by raid slot pressure, you can change your main to whatever you want, but you won't get in any raids so good luck. We did finally standardize our loot priority so that it goes Mains > Initiates > Alts > Casuals, since the initiates vs alts was a point of contention for a bit.

We actually treat the new main as a new player; all DKP on the alt is lost, and you can't switch until you're zero/positive.

We also don't generally approve class switches; we've had two. One was a paladin who just plain couldn't stand playing paladin anymore; since paladin is an overpopulated class for us, he switched to his warrior, and has been one of our normal OTs since. The other class switch was a druid who switched to a lock when we were *very* low on warlocks. They also get low priority on invites for a bit. though it isn't typically much of a problem.

Sunder · 05/17/06, 1:53 AM

BTW Sunder, who were you on Nife?

I didn't play on Nife, I played a cleric on Torvo.