Looking at this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...hreadID=518526

And specifically the post about nefarian's loot table.

Item Slot 1:
Common 20% each
-Pure elementium band
-Therazines
-Neltharions tear
-Boots
Rare 10% each
-Staff of shadow flame
-Asscandy

Item Slot 2:
Common 20% each
-Ring of Reck
-Prestors talisman
-Cloak of broodlord
-Mindflayer Hat
Rare 10% each
-Crul axe
-Lok'amir


This does seem to indicate that, for example, you can't get 2 items from group 2 on the same kill (ie ring of reck and the prestors). I always assumed all nonset items A-L were assigned probabilites, random rolled, and awared to slot 1 and 2, and if 2 matched 1, 2 was rerolled. Then any combination of 2 items would be theoratically possible.

It certainly seems odd how this model was used for nonset items, but not for set items. (A comparable model for set items would be putting chests 1-4 in item slot 1, and chests 5-8 in item slot 2, which would make duplicates impossible. Obviously this is not the case.). It also seems odd how duplication was acceptable for the set pieces but not the itemset.

I did some poking through other guilds nef kills, and I never saw any contradictions to the above (ie a kill with multiple item slot 2 items).


Ragnaros seems even odder; every time I have seen eye/BRE/Spinal drop it has been a 5th epic instead of occupying one of the standard 4 slots.


Does anybody else have any other evidence or information about these "item slot" groupings? Chromaggus I assume would have something similar to nefarian as he drops 4 epics. The bosses that drop 3 epics (2 set + 1 nonset) seem pretty simple (roll twice for set, the roll the nonset table).

Interesting. I'd come to suspect something like this after seeing Ouro's loot table in 1.10. It's almost like only one slot out of two intended slots is being generated when he dies, which is why his table is so small.

And yes, certain drops exist as a "bonus" slot. Shard of the Scale, Vis'kag, and Deathbringer will drop in addition to Onyxia's other loot, for example. Rag's weapons, Eye of Sulfuras, or Shard of the Flame (that thing is so rare for what it is) all occupy a fifth slot.

I wouldn't be suprised if it works this way for some bosses (or maybe all?). AM has gotten 2x triad (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52788) from the bug family before. I suppose the same item could be in both loot groups -- the common table and kri's table, not certain.

Oy, I suppose I wasn't clear; this is what I was referring to here:

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewt...hp?id=6527&p=2 (post 43)

Must just be something to do with the way they implement forced, fixed numbers of boss drops. Way back when, every item a mob could drop has its own, independent chance of dropping (this is, for example, how random white crap drops off of low-level things). I believe I read that this is how MC drops worked initially, but I wasn't in a raiding guild early enough to know. Eventually, they changed it to, "exactly 2 epics off of this boss," so this was probably the easiest way to do it. I bet you could perform the same analysis on Lucifron, if you wanted to.

For forced set drops, they just didn't bother. Slot A and Slot B are both equal to (12.5% for each class).

For ouro, it seems that not only is item slot 2 being ignored, item slot 1 is for some reason cut in half. These bosses typically have 12 nonset items, so even if 2 is nonexistent, 1 should have 6 items instead of 3.

I guess the most obvious example of these "item slot" groupings is the Twin Emps, where they grouping is actually apparent and obvious (set 1 is on Veklor, and 2 on Veknilash).

Not likely; the only real reason to have loot groups is so a given item is in 1 or the other. More likely its 2 random rolls across the entire set.

Both our 2 Eye of Sulphuras and 2 Spinal Reapers were dropped in addition to the normal 4 loots off Ragnaros, so I guess this makes sense.

So, a 10% chance per kill on the Staff of Shadowflame? Seem's rarer than that to me from what I've seen, but the principle seems right.

Probably, yeah, if items are done in 2 seperate sets like this, they're probably displayed 1 set after the other.

While I doubt anyone's collected data on this, it did make think of that old collage of Druid/Warlock gear during the loot superstition heyday. I dug it up:

http://jagels.net/loot.jpg

In this sample size of about 5, there's nothing contradicting this theory.

---

Can't Magmadar/Garr drop 3 non-set items if they want to? How odd. It would mean that the set legs/hats weren't given their own slots; they were treated like any other item.

Yes, both Garr and Magmadar have dropped complete non set loot for us - as has Lucifron, Gehennas and the rest of them at various times.

This has never happened in BWL though, apart from on the accursed Drakes, which suggests the loot tables there are more more fixed in terms of what you get and don't get.

I was under the impression the Drakes always dropped two set items. This does not bode well, considering our history of Bloodfang drops.

Yeah, just this last run we had a 3 non-set drop form Mag, and a single helm from Garr (Aurastone/Gutgore/Helm of Might).

My next hypothesis is if you look in Nefarian's loot table, the item for Slot 1 will display always display 3rd, and the item for Slot 2 4th (or vice versa, after all our designations of item sets are arbitrary).

C'thun, it seems, has 13 nonset items. My guess for that is the tentacle trinket is simply a random lucky drop that comes as a 6th item.
http://www.nurfed.com/uploads/wow/wow229.jpg

The Triumvirate doesn't seem to follow this rule; we've had two Triad Girdles drop from Vem at the same time. But I suppose that encounter is rather odd to begin with.

Isn't that in part because the drakes all share the ability to drop set loot from the same slot? If each drake is capable of not dropping set loot, then it's possible, though unlikely, that they won't drop any set loot at all. If Onyxia and Ragnaros didn't have the head and legs, then you'd probably never see that happen.

The same applies to MC bosses; only Ragnaros is defined as "Pant Holder Dude", so he has to carry two T2 pants, plus non-set loot.

Regarding bosses like the Trio that can double-drop nonset pieces, I have also experienced identical nonset drops from Green Dragons. I don't have a link to the DKP from the raid, so you'll have to consider it anecdotal evidence. I seem to remember seeing double leather wrists once, and also double leather hats.

All world bosses can two duplicate items. Az, Kaz, and the four Dragons.

Bosses that drop two t2 set pieces can double-drop set pieces (Ony, Rag, Razor, Vael, Broodlord, Chromaggus, Nef).

The Family/Trio in AQ40 can drop duplicate items as well, either off the shared loot table or the boss-specific one (we've seen 2x Ooze-covered from Vem, for example).

That's it.

That initial qupte is from a reply I made to one of the million nef loot posts on r&d. I had done a little write up on my guild site to show the guys not to trust the allakhazam numbers and noticed the following trends.

Numbering the non chest drops as follows
1 Therazane's Link
2 Boots of the Shadow Flame
3 Pure Elementium Band
4 Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer
5 Cloak of the Brood Lord
6 Neltharion's Tear
7 Prestor's Talisman of Connivery
8 Archimtiros' Ring of Reckoning
9 Staff of the Shadow Flame
10 Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos
11 Lok'amir il Romathis
12 Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood

Our kills this year yielded the following drops
3 8
3 5
2 7
3 5
1 5
2 5
3 11
1 4
3 5
1 10
4 12
3 8
9 5
9 4
6 11
6 8

Assuming the loots were from 2 subtables you can then use each drop to imply that those 2 loots must belong to different tables.

We got a whole bunch of broodlord cloaks and pure elementium bands which helped this analysis. I will leave out some details (you can all use your own loots to verify)

Merging these drops together showed the expected overlap of mutually exclusive loots. The data from our drops definitely implies that there are infact 2 distinct loot tables for the 2 non chest drops and that the groups are...

Group A
4 Mish'undare, Circlet of the Mind Flayer
5 Cloak of the Brood Lord
7 Prestor's Talisman of Connivery
8 Archimtiros' Ring of Reckoning
10 Crul'shorukh, Edge of Chaos
11 Lok'amir il Romathis

group B
1 Therazane's Link
2 Boots of the Shadow Flame
3 Pure Elementium Band
6 Neltharion's Tear
9 Staff of the Shadow Flame
12 Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brotherhood

the loot counts on allakhazam are very untrustworthy but you will notice a 'rough' trend of 2:1 between the weapon and non weapon loots.

So the non weapons are roughly 20% per kill in each group and the weapons are 10% each.

This is actually a pretty cool system. It gets rid of duplicate drops and still seems totally random. It took 4 months of data to show the pattern.

Applying the same analysis to Chromaggus shows...
Same as nef there is roughly a 2-1 ratio between the common and uncommon drops (the weapons and shield are uncommon)

Group A contains
(20%) Taut Dragonhide shoulders
(20%) Chromatic Boots
(20%) Angelista's Grasp
(20%) Empowered Leggings
(10%) Chromatically Tempered Sword
(10%) Elementium Reinforced Bulwark

Group B contains:
(20%) Elementium Threaded Cloak
(20%) Taut Dragonhide Gloves
(20%) Shimmering Geta
(20%) Faction Item
(10%) Claw of Chromaggus
(10%) Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting


The chromaggus claw and the shield are definitely rares and definitely in different groups but the only time they have dropped for us they BOTH dropped so i can not tell which belongs where. I am sure you guys can fill in the details.



If C'thun works the same way all I can confirm thus far is that deoi is on a diff group than the cloth gloves and mage belt.

Going through my guild's DKP database, Elementium Reinforced Bulwark is in group A and Claw of Chromaggus is in Group B.

Thx raz i'll update.

This is a fun game :P. Claw of Chromaggus belongs in group B, as when we got it it dropped with Empowered Leggings. We got an Elementium Reinforced Bulwark (group A) with an Ashjre'thul (group B), so that works out there, too.

For C'Thun, here's what I can figure out from what you said, and what drops we've gotten, and looking around at random guild's websites:

Group A
Commonish Drops
-Mark of C'Thun
-Gauntlets of Annihilation
-Grasp of the Old God
-Cloak of Clarity
Rare Drops
-Dark Edge of Insanity
-Scepter of the False Prophet

Group B
Commonish Drops
-Eyestalk Waist Cord
-Cloak of the Devoured
-Ring of the Godslayer
-Dark Storm Gauntlets
-Belt of Never-Ending Agony
Rare Drops
-Death's Sting

Group C (Special Extra Drop)
-Vanquished Tentacle of C'Thun


EDIT: That gives is 5 items figured out for group B, and 4 figured out for group A. There's 12 total drops other than quest items and the trinket, so I think it's safe to say there's 1 more item that is in Group B, and then every other item will be in group A. Also, the interesting thing is the "order in the loot window" seems to hold up as well. Every single Death's Sting loot screenshot I've seen has placed it in the lower slot, whereas every single Dark Edge I've seen has been in the upper slot.

EDIT #2: With Gurg's info, the only item that it leaves "unknown" is Cloak of Clarity, which I'll assume is in group A.

EDIT #3: CoC confirmed!

Belt of Never-Ending Agony is a B drop.
Grasp of the Old God is an A drop.

Hehe looks like you got c'thun figured out then. Now they will have to add some frikken mail to his loot table to spice things up :p