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Old 06/05/06, 6:53 PM   #151
Zeboim
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Daggerspine
Originally Posted by Brodda Thep
I would think downranking would be optimal for hunter dps. Which is what I do with my hunter. Rank 1 multi is all you will find on my bar. Though you do find aim 5 since I have mana to spare since I am not continuously fighting usually. But then he is just a twink.
I did some number crunching on this before but I haven't completely expressed it in all the variables so I havn't added it to my original post. Also these numbers are from memory(could be a litle off)

You have 500 dps with the highest rank multi and aimed. 479 dps using highest aimed and rank 1 multi. 405 dps with rank 1 multi and aimed. These numbers all assume 25% crit. FD drinking using the highest rank of both spells will put you at 410 overall. You can do 500 dps for about 3 mintues before you run out of mana. 479 dps for almost 6 minutes. 405 dps forever. Seems like the best strat for most fights over 6 minutes is to use rank 1 multi and rank 6 aimed until you run out of mana, then use rank 1 multi and aimed until your target it dead. Although using rank 1 multi and aimed is lower dps than fd drinking, I figured the fight would have to be longer than 2 hours before your dps would drop below 410.

For fights between 3-6 minutes you can switch between rank 1 multi and rank 5 to keep you mana pool% the same as your targets health%. This would mean a total dps between 479 and 500. And for fights less than 3 minutes you can use highest rank on both spells and throw in a serpent to keep you mana pool the same sa your targets. But remember, serpent also consumes a tick of regen and will net cost you 291 mana(250 mana cost + 41 tick).

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Old 06/05/06, 7:00 PM   #152
dojke
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aszune (EU)
Perhaps you're right on the c'thun thing - our guild doesn't have enough dps on the claws if 1-2 hunters are awol every spawn though so personally my downtime comes in like 3 seconds spurts.

However I was under the impression (haven't done the math on this) that fd/drink was better than spam aim6/multi5 then autoshot. If this is not the case, then this entire cycle-style of methodology seems to be almost worthless since there's exactly 0 fights you could do it without ooming on. For example, waiting for auto to complete before aiming would basically always win.

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Old 06/05/06, 7:10 PM   #153
Lactose
Don Lactose
 
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Tauren Hunter
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Consumables and mana/5 (or crit) does not care for the 5 second rule. Liberal use of consumables make you able to prevent getting out of mana in nearly every encounter. Group setup also has an influence though (at least for horde).

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Old 06/05/06, 7:46 PM   #154
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
between mana pots and 5 piece strikers coupled with JOW/bow, i rarely run out of mana on most fights (although, to be fair, there are some fights where i actively preserve my mana beause i can't waste my potion cooldown, like huhuran pre-30%). if you don't want to spend money on consumables, you can get better results downranking, but your best output will be from using max ranks and potting when necessary.

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Old 06/05/06, 8:09 PM   #155
Twid
Bald Bull
 
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Beepz
Human Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Yeah, I'm guessing that if you downrank like 1-2 ranks, hit demonic runes, mana pots, have all the mp5 consumeables, you could avoid drinking an entire ebonroc fight

Originally Posted by Kalman View Post
Get you some purple drank and slow yo roll.

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Old 06/05/06, 8:44 PM   #156
Brodda Thep
Von Kaiser
 
Murloc Paladin
 
Kilrogg
So I was wrong on the damage lost from not using top rank multi's and aimed. Which really should have been obvious.

So you would have to add in crit chance, mortal shots, ranged weapon specialization (?), and barrage.

It just never seemed to me that hunters could turn mana into damage efficiently enough to stop autoing. If you consider multi1 and aimed1 as baselines where you coudl go forever then you get 150 damage for 130 mana going from rank1 to rank5. Aimed you get 530 damage for 235 mana.

You would have to get right near 3 damage per mana to make drinking worthwhile. (140mps * 3 = 420dps) Multi certainly won't get you there on a single target. Though aimed should get you there. After crits and talents you probably get 750ish damage for 235 mana. I suppose a better idea for drinking is to just get the best regenning drink out there. However, I would think autoshot damage is increasing faster than the extra damage gained from higher ranks. It won't be long before drinking is not worth it. Though new and better drinks will once again make it worthwhile.

It does look like multi1 and highest aim while ignoring serpent sting is the way to go on any fight where mana is an issue.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:07 PM   #157
Fenrus
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Lightning's Blade
So how will Blizzard fix this without nerfing hunters by changing the aimed shot period or making all ranged weapons 3.4 speed?

I was thinking about this and came up with one possibility that might be more palpable to the hunter player base, weapon specializations. Warriors and rogues have specialization talents for melee weapons, why not give hunters specializations for ranged weapons? This might work given the ranged weapon types in the game can be broken down by speeds. Bows and guns are generally faster than crossbows, ranging from 1.5 (Precisely Calibrated Boomstick) and 1.6 (Hurricane) to 2.9 (Rhok) with most bows and guns around the 2.3-2.6 ranges. Most crossbows tend to be 3.0 speed and slower.

Sword spec has a chance for a double attack, mace spec has a chance to stun, and polearm/axe get extra crit. Maybe you could have something analogous to this for ranged weapon types. Perhaps once the expansion comes out they could add these to the marksmen tree. This is just a rough idea

Crossbow Specialization:
Rank 1: Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Crossbows by 1%
Rank 2: Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Crossbows by 2%
Rank 3: Increases your chance to get a critical strike with Crossbows by 3%

Gun Specialization:
Rank 1: Increases the damage you deal with guns by 1%
Rank 2: Increases the damage you deal with guns by 2%
Rank 3: Increases the damage you deal with guns by 3%

Bow Specialization:
Rank 1: Increases your attack speed with Bows by 2%
Rank 2: Increases your attack speed with Bows by 4%
Rank 3: Increases your attack speed with Bows by 6%

This is just a rough idea. You’d have to play with the numbers a bit to make sure that these would be at a relative power level as I have no idea if faster bows would equate to extra damage from guns or bigger crit chance from xbows.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:24 PM   #158
 Shalas
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
They could always just normalize autoshot.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:27 PM   #159
Steelfleece
Soda Popinski
 
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Goblin Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
I suggested the specialization idea a bit back, and basically came up with similar ideas to yours(crit with crossbows, speed with bows, though I had guns as a chance to stun). They are basically gonna have to normalize auto-shot, or change the way aimed shot works(it could return to the old days where it replaced the auto-shot in rotation). Either way would be a significant nerf to hunters with slow weapons, which is unfortunate.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:41 PM   #160
Billmaan
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Deathwing
Originally Posted by Fenrus
So how will Blizzard fix this without nerfing hunters
Quite simply, they won't. If they consider this a problem -- and they certainly should -- the most straightforward solution is just to have aimed shot reset or pause the shot timer (the former being more likely, as to the best of my knowledge no skills or spells do the latter). As was said earlier in the thread, that's apparently how things used to be, so I doubt they'll try it...it's probably the "right" solution, though. This would be a nerf to PvE damage output, so ideally they'd throw in an offsetting buff at the same time. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about hunters to come up with anything plausible, so just use your imagination here.

Another approach would be to reduce the casting time of aimed shot. There'd still be a "perfect" weapon speed, but it would be much lower than 3.4. Assuming I understand all of this stuff correctly, if aimed shot turned into a two second cast, any weapon slower than 2.3 wouldn't lose any auto shot damage. The underlying issue would still be there, but it'd be less noticeable. Obviously you'd have to adjust aimed shot damage somewhat to compensate, which would incite bitching on a grand scale. (Granted, any chagne would incite bitching on a grand scale.)

Or, they could just ignore the problem for a while. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the issue addressed when the expansion comes out, with the fix hidden inside a mile-long changelog.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:47 PM   #161
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
i seriously doubt this issue will be addressed before the expansion. changing the slavemaker to 3.4 is a patch that covers up the problem at least passibly until then. granted, it's really sad that weapons like Ancient Qiraji Musket, Huhuran's Stinger, Toxin Injector, and the amazing looking Naxx bow will fall by the wayside, but as long as there's a light at the end of the tunnel, it'll be enough to shut people up until some major mechanical changes can be made all at once.

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Old 06/06/06, 4:50 PM   #162
Fenrus
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Lightning's Blade
That's kinda what I was thinking with my "bow specialization" idea. What if the attack speed increase included the cast time to aimed shot (but not the cooldown). In other words, a 6% increase in attack speed would reduce the aimed shot casting time from 3 seconds to about 2.48 sec, that would decrease the overall cycle time for bows so you could fit more cycles in compared to guns/xbows.

I guess I'm grasping at straws hoping the Blizzard doesn't decide to take the easy way out by simply nerf aimed shot but instead comes up with a more creative solution.

Heck just make aimed shot a prereq for bow specialization in the marksmenship tree and have it be

rank 1: reduces the cast time of your aimed shot by .3 seconds
rank 2: reduces the cast time of your aimed shot by .4 seconds
rank 3: reduces the cast time of your aimed shot by .5 seconds

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Old 06/06/06, 4:59 PM   #163
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Fenrus
That's kinda what I was thinking with my "bow specialization" idea. What if the attack speed increase included the cast time to aimed shot (but not the cooldown). In other words, a 6% increase in attack speed would reduce the aimed shot casting time from 3 seconds to about 2.48 sec, that would decrease the overall cycle time for bows so you could fit more cycles in compared to guns/xbows.

I guess I'm grasping at straws hoping the Blizzard doesn't decide to take the easy way out by simply nerf aimed shot but instead comes up with a more creative solution.
the issue is not just the cast time, but the cooldown. weapons with speeds that fit closer to the exact cycle lose less of an autoshot both during the cast and between casts, and get a higher AP bonus on those shots that they do fire.

a possible solution could include un-normalizing aimed shot and making the skill cast time actually dependant on weapon speed (attack speed+some flat time), although i think then slow weapons would still be favored because the flat time would be a lower percentage of the actual attack speed, and it's not clear how much you would solve with the cooldown issue either. i don't feel like crunching numbers on this :-P

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Old 06/06/06, 5:03 PM   #164
Lactose
Don Lactose
 
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Tauren Hunter
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Hmm... I made a suggestion for a rework of Aimed Shot on the European hunter forums before Multi-Shot and Aimed Shot was normalized. I'll see if I can dig it up again. Might be interesting for some to read :P

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
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Old 06/07/06, 9:54 AM   #165
Moridin
Piston Honda
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Silvermoon
Could change it from 3s cast to weapon speed, meaning any speed bow would be able to not lose auto-shot time basically. Would of course have to remove the normalization of AP too for Aimed Shot.

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