Elitist Jerks Hunter damage cycles breakdown (Nerubian Slavemaker update)

 05/16/06, 4:58 AM #16 Lactose Don Lactose     Lactose Tauren Hunter   Talnivarr (EU) Sorry, I really can't grasp anything right now :P Let me get back to you after some heavy sleeping. I really appreciate the feedback though, my brain's just stopped at the moment =) Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race. - Sam & Max
 05/16/06, 7:29 AM #17 Lactose Don Lactose     Lactose Tauren Hunter   Talnivarr (EU) Arawethion, if you wouldn't mind... do you think you could post 3 cycles for a ranged weapon faster than 10 seconds, and 3 cycles for a ranged weapon slower than 10 seconds, to show what you mean? I guess you should be able to use some of the examples I gave, since you have both greater than and lesser than 10 sec cycles there. Timestamps would be awesome =) Cycle 1, cycle 2... Cycle where Aimed + Multi collide On both of the above. I would like to include this if possible, if I can find a good way of doing it, since I want it included in some stuff I've made... Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race. - Sam & Max
05/16/06, 8:59 AM   #18
Kalman
Super Macho Man

<>
Orc Shaman

No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Arawethion
 Originally Posted by Kalman So, I shouldn't point out that to properly derive the crit/AP/hit/skill equivalence I should have derived an equation for raw DPS as a function of our melee variables, then taken the respective partial derivatives w/r/t crit, AP, hit, and skill, and setting them equal given the formulas for checking your equivalence? ;)
Well, to be fair, isn't this exactly what you did? You just did it numerically. But you're still basically trying to find the gradient of the DPS surface in a phase space of all stats.

The sad part is that doing the above would be trivial for Mage DPS--everything is linear.

This is great stuff, by the way.
...

Will you marry me?

Yes, I did it numerically, and that just irks. I prefer analytical solutions where they're available, especially when my only excuse for not deriving one is pure laziness.

Back to hunters: Rapid Fire modifies aimed shot cast time?

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

05/16/06, 9:24 AM   #19
Lactose
Don Lactose

Tauren Hunter

Talnivarr (EU)
 Originally Posted by Kalman Back to hunters: Rapid Fire modifies aimed shot cast time?
Yes.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 05/16/06, 9:27 AM #20 Starks Piston Honda   Tonymontana Murloc Hunter   Perenolde Same with Quick Shots and Berserking.
05/16/06, 9:29 AM   #21
Kalman
Super Macho Man

<>
Orc Shaman

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Starks Same with Quick Shots and Berserking.
Well, I assumed that if one did, all did. :)

I did, however, think it was a fixed 3 second cast for Aimed, and that this wasn't modifiable.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

 05/16/06, 12:48 PM #22 Branar Don Flamenco   Branar Human Paladin   Vek'nilash Nope. Aimed Shot's a bit odd...physical damage, no cast-bar, modified by "haste" abilities (though not by quiver speed I think?) but loses cast time when you get hit just like a spell.
05/16/06, 3:30 PM   #23
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Lactose Arawethion, if you wouldn't mind... do you think you could post 3 cycles for a ranged weapon faster than 10 seconds, and 3 cycles for a ranged weapon slower than 10 seconds, to show what you mean? I guess you should be able to use some of the examples I gave, since you have both greater than and lesser than 10 sec cycles there. Timestamps would be awesome =) Cycle 1, cycle 2... Cycle where Aimed + Multi collide On both of the above. I would like to include this if possible, if I can find a good way of doing it, since I want it included in some stuff I've made...
Okay, but just realize that the corrections are only a few percent, and probably dwarfed by other errors in practice. For the sake of good theory, however:

For an 11s cycle (say, an 8/3=2.66s Auto)
0.0 Aimed Shot fires
0.0 Multi Shot fires
0.0 Auto Shot fires
2.7 Auto Shot fires
5.3 Auto Shot fires
8.0 Auto Shot fires
8.0 Start Aimed Shot
11.0 Aimed Shot fires
11.0 Auto Shot fires
11.0 Multi Shot fires (it cooled down during Aimed Shot.)
13.7 Auto Shot fires
16.3 Auto Shot fires
19.0 Auto Shot fires
19.0 Start Aimed Shot
22.0 Aimed Shot fires
22.0 Auto Shot fires
22.0 Multi Shot fires

et cetera. If you start by firing Multi right before an Aimed (rather than after, as I've shown above), you'll get off a Multi every 10s for a little while, but eventually, you'll run into your Aimed Shot. You won't be able to sustain a long-term average of more than 1 Multi every 11 seconds.

----------

A 9s cycle (2.0s Auto Shot)
0 Aimed Shot fires
0 Multi Shot fires
0 Auto Shot fires
2 Auto Shot fires
4 Auto Shot fires
6 Auto Shot fires
6 Start Aimed Shot
9 Aimed Shot fires
9 Auto Shot fires
10 Multi Shot fires
11 Auto Shot fires
13 Auto Shot fires
15 Auto Shot fires
15 Start Aimed Shot
18 Aimed Shot fires
18 Auto Shot fires
20 Auto Shot fires
20 Multi Shot fires
22 Auto Shot fires
24 Auto Shot fires
24 Start Aimed Shot
27 Aimed Shot fires
27 Auto Shot fires
29 Auto Shot fires
30 Multi Shot fires
31 Auto Shot fires
33 Auto Shot fires
33 Start Aimed Shot
36 Aimed Shot fires
36 Auto Shot fires
38 Auto Shot fires
40 Multi Shot fires
40 Auto Shot fires
42 Auto Shot fires
42 Start Aimed Shot
45 Aimed Shot fires
45 Auto Shot fires
47 Auto Shot fires
49 Auto Shot fires
50 Multi Shot fires
51 Auto Shot fires
51 Start Aimed Shot
54 Aimed Shot fires
54 Auto Shot fires
56 Auto Shot fires
58 Auto Shot fires
60 Multi Shot cools down, but you cannot fire it because your Aimed shot is ready.
60 Auto Shot fires
60 Start Aimed Shot
63 Aimed Shot fires
63 Auto Shot fires
63 Multi Shot fires, and we're back to where we stated.

You get off 6 Multishots in 63 seconds (7 cycles).

05/16/06, 3:45 PM   #24
Twid
Bald Bull

Beepz
Human Warrior

No WoW Account
One thing I'd be curious about is on fights where you are taking AoE damage, or any kind of spell interruption (a la Vaelastrasz), does switching to arcane shot increase dps?

I guess what I'm really asking is how long of a cast time does aimed shot have to be before arcane shot overtakes it?

 Originally Posted by Kalman Get you some purple drank and slow yo roll.

 05/16/06, 5:03 PM #25 Elendril KINDOFABIGDEAL     Elendril Night Elf Hunter   Ner'zhul casting aimed shot on ouro when a bunch of bugs are chomping on you can be really annoying, because you're hoping someone fears them off, and then no one does, and you realize about 2 seconds into the cast that it's just not going to happen and you have to move and fire off an arcane shot :-P
05/16/06, 9:34 PM   #26
Lactose
Don Lactose

Tauren Hunter

Talnivarr (EU)
 Originally Posted by Arawethion Okay, but just realize that the corrections are only a few percent, and probably dwarfed by other errors in practice. For the sake of good theory, however: For an 11s cycle (say, an 8/3=2.66s Auto) et cetera. If you start by firing Multi right before an Aimed (rather than after, as I've shown above), you'll get off a Multi every 10s for a little while, but eventually, you'll run into your Aimed Shot. You won't be able to sustain a long-term average of more than 1 Multi every 11 seconds.
First, just looking at the speed, etc, the 9 second cycle would actually be better :P
2.66 Auto Shot fires
5.32 Auto Shot fires
6.00 Start Aimed Shot
9.00 Aimed Shot fires
9.00 Auto Shot fires

Took Rhok'delar stats, changed weapon speed to 3.06 --> 2.66 after quiver
So, commenting on the 9 sec cycle first.
Let's try adding Multi-Shot here. Testing several options, so bear with me :P
Removing Auto Shots for less clutter.

0.00 Multi-Shot fires
6.00 Start Aimed Shot
9.00 Aimed Shot fires
10.00 Multi-Shot fires
...
51.00 Start Aimed Shot
54.00 Aimed Shot fires
60.00 Dilemma!

Looking at our cycle, a closer look at the last part would be:

54.00 Aimed Shot fires
54.00 Auto Shot fires
56.66 Auto Shot fires
59.32 Auto Shot fires

3 options, delay Multi-Shot until after Aimed Shot. Delay Aimed Shot until after Multi-Shot (this turns it into the 10 sec cycle, so I won't write it down again). Delay Aimed Shot until after Multi-Shot + Auto Shot.

60.00 Start Aimed Shot
63.00 Aimed Shot fires
63.00 Auto Shot fires
63.00 Multi-Shot fires
65.66 Auto Shot fires
66.00 Start Aimed Shot
Multi-Shot delayed by 3 seconds. Same will happen every 7 cycles,
So instead of 0.9*Multi-Shot, it should be... 0.86*Multi-Shot? 6/7 * Multi-Shot would seem correct based on the above...

60.00 Multi-Shot fires
61.98 Auto Shot fires
61.98 Start Aimed Shot
64.98 Aimed Shot fires
64.98 Auto Shot fires
67.64 Auto Shot fires
70.00 Multi-Shot
70.30 Auto Shot fires
70.98 Start Aimed Shot
Aimed Shot delayed by 1.98 seconds. Conflicting cooldowns ever 2 cycles or so.

Seems 0.86*Multi-Shot is the best bet at the moment, based on this weapon speed at least. Which seems to agree with what you're saying, no? Well, so much for the 9 second cycle, let's check with a cycle exceeding 10 seconds.

Testing, the longest (optimal) cycle was with the speed of Rhok'delar, making the cycle 10.57 seconds. So, using that.
Actually, scratch that. It just dawned on me now. Basically, if the cycle is longer than 10 seconds, you only get 1 Multi-Shot per cycle due to Aimed Shot casting.
For a cycle shorter than 10 seconds... Hmm...
In the example above, the cycle is 1 second faster than Multi-Shot cooldown. Thus it takes 6 fully run cycles for Multi-Shot to catch up with Aimed Shot? If it takes x cycles, the coefficient for Multi-Shot would be x/(x+1) -- as it is now, 6/7 fits that at least :P
Would that mean that you could do something similar to... [messy math]
IF CycleLength > 10; 1*MultiShot_PerCycle
IF CycleLength < 10; ((6/(10-CycleLength)) / (1+6/(10-CycleLength)))*MultiShot_PerCycle
[/messy math]
Question is, if it's right, should I round it up or down? :P

Can't think of anything else right now... although I think I'll be able to reformat the comparisons a lot. I'll save it for after the formulae are commented on though ;)

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 05/16/06, 10:28 PM #27 Lactose Don Lactose     Lactose Tauren Hunter   Talnivarr (EU) Reformatted to help the eyes :P Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race. - Sam & Max
05/16/06, 11:51 PM   #28
frmorrison
Protector

Ashstrike

No WoW Account
 Originally Posted by Lactose Reformatted to help the eyes :P
Indeed, it was a good change.

 05/17/06, 7:59 AM #29 Xeres Glass Joe   Xerkes Tauren Hunter   Kult der Verdammten (EU) I'm currently 0/21/30 I'm wondering what is more effective now or how it would affect your calcs as all the AP, Auto, Aimed and Multi has different values
 05/17/06, 10:56 AM #30 Lactose Don Lactose     Lactose Tauren Hunter   Talnivarr (EU) This reworked shot calculation is done manually, so it takes some time using other variables. It's basically done so I can test the automatic version of it. Once I'm sure it's working - and it seems to be up until now, with pretty varying weapon speeds - I'll only be a bit unsure of some hit%. After that, I'm all set. I've been working on a spreadsheet for comparing gear and builds in terms of damage (mana not considered due to lots of reasons). Various versions of it have been seen on the EU hunter forums, and I'll post a link to it here if there's any interest. It won't give the timestamp version for cycles, but will show DPS with crits included, and factor in every related talent, as well as choosing between which cycle you should use (wait for Auto Shot or not). Basically, when it's done, you'll be able to check yourself ;) Up until that point, I really can't do each calculation with different builds, gear, etc; it would take too much of my time, and I would probably fall asleep while doing it. Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race. - Sam & Max

 Elitist Jerks Hunter damage cycles breakdown (Nerubian Slavemaker update)