Frost Mage Spreadsheet - Page 2

Soul · 05/18/06, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Speaking of weapon-swapping, I'm pretty sure that people like me who use AV offhands can switch them around without losing any time, by "hiding" the global cooldown inside spell cast times. As far as I can tell, though, this isn't really significant enough to be worth doing.

I used to be able to do this, but I can't seem to do this now. I can swap weapons while channeling Evocation, but when I'm, say, casting Frostbolt, I don't seem to be able to change weapons. And believe me, I've tried... it'd great to swap to the Sliver+Dragon Finger of Spirit as you cast one last Frostbolt, so you can get 2-3 Evocation ticks in FSR.

• Hamlet · 05/18/06, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Soul

I used to be able to do this, but I can't seem to do this now. I can swap weapons while channeling Evocation, but when I'm, say, casting Frostbolt, I don't seem to be able to change weapons. And believe me, I've tried... it'd great to swap to the Sliver+Dragon Finger of Spirit as you cast one last Frostbolt, so you can get 2-3 Evocation ticks in FSR.

Hmm, to be honest, I've never actually tested the weapon-swapping and the 5SR in conjunction, only separately, so maybe you can't get quite as much as I'd thought.

I use ItemRack to handle the weapon swaps. I'll watch it carefully next time I chain a non-instant cast spell directly into Evocation, but you're probably right; you miss the first tick.

Cloudgatherer · 05/18/06, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Finally, things I haven't worked in yet:
NW Focus. I don't have this yet; any thoughts on the particular timing intricacies would be appreciated.
Timers (AP, PoM, Trinkets)

NW Focus procs as soon as the spell casts (not when it lands, like clearcast does). As far as timing goes, everyone who gets 8/8 NW for the first time has to go thru an adjustment phase. Every mage attempts to time their next spell the moment their current spell finishes casting, but this is the exact same time NW proc goes off, and many mages find they have fired 2 frostbolts off simultaneously, but hardly realize it (takes some getting used to). In pure theorycraft, this shaves 1 second off the 2.5 second talented frostbolt cast time, but does nothing else (ie, the global cooldown becomes the cast time of a frostbolt when NW focus occurs). When chain casting, one just has to accept that the regular "hit button every 2.5/3" seconds will change once in a while based on when NW Focus procs.

Cirin · 05/18/06, 9:49 PM

Unrequited wrote a little mod that is pretty nice to use with Netherwind Focus. Bascially, if you are spamming one button (ie: Frostbolt) and NW Focus procs it will automatically fire off a Fireball. I am not sure if he has updated it to include Pyroblast yet but he did say he was planning on it. Anyway, here is the link: http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=3810 (curse gaming is migrating servers or something at the moment so if you get a 404 try again later, I guess :/)

• Hamlet · 05/19/06, 1:50 AM

Ok. So what do I need to know about the average behavior of someone who's casting away, all while dealing with the simultaneous chances of NW Focus and CC?

Z-Factor · 05/19/06, 6:39 AM

0.1*0.1 = 0.01, so 1% chance they both activate at the same time. But a 20% chance on every spell that it is either free or instant cast (presuming you're using Frostbolt, Fireball, or Arcane Missiles).

The new tier 1 frost talent is going to appear in nearly every mage build though, an innate 6% chance to hit with frost and fire spells.

• Hamlet · 05/19/06, 11:56 AM

Ah crap, I just realized that Clearcasting can only proc when you hit. This throws a wrench in the whole works.

EDIT: I don't even want to think about partially-resistable Fire spells yet.

• Hamlet · 05/19/06, 2:25 PM

Ugh, and Ignite (and Combustion + Ignite) are going to be messy. Will probably have to take the simulational approach. As soon as I've been away for long enough to stand the sight of MATLAB again, I'll give it a go.

• Hamlet · 05/22/06, 2:59 AM

Ok, got my 8/8 today. Will continue to work on this as soon as I have time--it now has more interest for me, as I'd to find out what it predicts as to how the set bonus will compare to +127 more spell damage from non-set gear. And, as always, whether to go Frost or Fire after the patch.

For reference, any intuition from current Mages on wich would push more DPS: the gear in my profile, or the same suit with full NW swapped into the appropriate slots?

Lagomorph · 05/22/06, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Ok, got my 8/8 today. Will continue to work on this as soon as I have time--it now has more interest for me, as I'd to find out what it predicts as to how the set bonus will compare to +127 more spell damage from non-set gear. And, as always, whether to go Frost or Fire after the patch.

For reference, any intuition from current Mages on wich would push more DPS: the gear in my profile, or the same suit with full NW swapped into the appropriate slots?

None of the mages in our raid is particularly enamored of the bonus - mostly because of things like hit and crit that they lose out on.

The rough theorycraft I came up with (spamming all r11 frostbolts) came out to about a 4% dps increase. If you swap in fireballs on procs instead that should go up a bit more. Being generous to the set maybee a 6% increase. Remembering rough equivalency from your spreadsheet 3 +dmg ended up as about 1DPS, soooo you're looking at roughly 400 DPS*.06 vs 127*.33 which works out too - 24 DPS vs 41 DPS.

Even if the clearcast procs turned into a raw 10% DPS increase, you're pretty much at the level of +dmg (assuming you have the 648 that comes base in your spreadsheet) that makes netherwind less valuable than straight up non-set gear. (especially if you factor in lost hit and crit).

Hopefully that's useful as a baseline for you to work from.

• Hamlet · 05/22/06, 6:11 AM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Ah crap, I just realized that Clearcasting can only proc when you hit. This throws a wrench in the whole works.

EDIT: I don't even want to think about partially-resistable Fire spells yet.

Ok, I'll probably try to make this change first. Questions:

How does Clearcasting work with Arcane Missiles? I'm trying my best to visualize what happens while I'm playing. I keep thinking the chime appears right when AM starts channeling. Does this sound right to people? If so, does it happen on 10% of all casts? Does it only happen when the first Missile is not resisted? Would anyone even have any useful data about specifically when the first Missile is resisted?

As far as Fire spells, can Clearcasts happen if and only if a spell isn't fully resisted (i.e. it's 10% likely, even on a partial resist of any amount)? Does anyone even know the specific probabilities of partial resists?

Maledict · 05/22/06, 10:14 AM

Just to note, Arcane Missiles on test is getting more damage from + damage gear than previously. It now appears to be getting 121% of your damage gear bonus, spread out across all 5 missiles obviously.

Also, the co-efficient for AE's has changed, and instead of being 33% of the + damage gear, it's now 39%.

Can't get onto the euro test realms to do harder testing I'm afraid atm.

Maledict · 05/22/06, 10:35 AM

Just used this spreadsheet, and discovered that as I'm a Horde mage, with my current gear, I can sustain my maximum dmage output for 95 seconds. Were I an Alliance mage, I could last for 135 seconds.

Can't they just remove Judgement of Wisdom from the game or something, it seems so abusive in comparison to even stuff like Salvation and Kings?

Anywho, very nice sheet. Just slightly depressing... :)

dfinberg · 05/22/06, 12:03 PM

125 seconds casting is 50 frostbolts (I'll ignore NW), for 25 wisdom procs, at 59 mana each. 1500 mana. Rank 11 bolt is 290 mana, minus efficiency talents. Something seems wrong there Maledict. Did you mean BoW instead of JoW?

Aynways, don't want this to derail into a pally/shaman thread; we all know Alliance get a tremendous benefit from Pally buffage. If Naxx has a few encounters that really show off the shaman advantages (burst damage; spike healing; rare totem situations) we can hope the whining on both sides stop, but it will probably just increase.

Edit: Double halved JoW in the numbers. Still, that looks like a 12sec gain, not 30.

Maledict · 05/22/06, 12:46 PM

Yeah, was counting BoW nd JoW together, plus presumably the extra spirit from BoK is included.

Bah, I'm the RL, I'll just start giving myself shaman instead of the rogues. They don't need them!

Am curious about a fire version, as I'm still mulling over speccing to fire, or at least an elementalist, for 1.11.