Rogue Spec Discussion

Apocalypse · 05/19/06, 2:38 AM

Hello I know that this topic has been discussed many times over, but I wanted to form it to my character specifically looking at my current gear and what is attainable. I have been looking to go swords for a long time and I finally attained a Brutality Blade. Unfortunatly my spec is 30/8/13 with Glacial and Bonescraper. So I don't have a sword alternate. My guild has ZG, Ony, and all of MC down pat we just downed Rag last week. We have been in MC for only 4 weeks so we have out progressed our gear a little bit and with that all BWL gear is way off into the horizon. I have played 20/31 with swords but I am not sure that is the best PvE sword spec. I like to PvP but it isnt important on this character atm. So I was wondering if you guys could enlighten me on to which spec I should go for and whatnot. I wanted to try Hemo out but I am not sure it is viable with swords I haven't seen a diffinitive Hemo build. Well to get back on topic I am able to get a Warblade of Hakkari (OH) or a Vis'kag Bloodletter pending the drops. That being said what spec would benefit me currently and what should I look forward too pending the other swords for maximum dps in MC and Beyond hopefuly soon...

My Current Equip:
MH= Brutality Blade (15agi)
OH= Glacial Blade
Alt= Bonescraper
AP= 730
Crit= 25.66%
Hit= 6%
Dodge= 24.32%
Health= 3883

My current Spec:
30/8/13

I have NS bracers and gloves and BF hood, looking to fillout on NS.
Again thanks for the assistance and I will be looking at the math myself just wanted some experienced human analysis.

aya · 05/19/06, 3:04 AM

One of the key aspects of Hemorrhage is the fact that AP-calculation on it isn't normalized as with other instant attacks. It this it takes greater effect out of the slow speed on some weapons (VisKag the Bloodletter coming to mind first), but with Brutality blade you wouldn't be gaining this sort of special benefits. For most parts just "basic" combat-build of 20 Assassination / 31 Combat would propably be the best for you, as it scales relatively nicely with gear and thanks to Adrenaline Rush you can still enjoy the PvP aspect of the game somewhat - even if only ever six minutes. Any way you do it, you should definately slap on a Sword-type weapon in your offhand aswel to maximize the effect of Sword Specialization - offhand procs result in extra mainhand attacks.

As an alternative I'de like to propose a Poison-build. Don't be alarmed by the looks of it, but rather think it through before saying No-no, even if this sort of stuff might seem tad unpopular at the moment in the rogue-community (or so I'de imagine, I shiver at the thought of visiting official rogue-forums)...
The idea here is that since you're relatively low on AP, effects from (unnormalized) WF won't benefit you especially lots and GoA should be as good for you as a party-buff. Since you're talking about Raid-encounters for the most part, you'll be keeping on Slice and Dice pretty much always anyway, and in this way increasing the speed which you poke in poisons. Elementals in MC are unfortunately immune to poison, but it seems you have that place on farm anyway, and losing some DPS on trashmobs shouldn't be much of an issue there. With full talents in poisons your inst. poison should be having 30% chance to inflict around 150 damage, or in other words hit on extra 45 or so damage per hit, averaging it out. This damage can ofcourse be resisted (especially by high level mobs/bosses), but armour doesn't hinder it at all.

Below is the build I'm enjoying with my little alt rogue (darkmantle armour, hakkari blades), and with some variation it might well suit your needs too.

Assassination
Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Malice 5/5
Ruthlessness 3/3
Improved Slice and Dice 3/3
Relentless Strikes 1/1
Vile Poisons 5/5
Improved Instant Poison 5/5

Combat
Improved Gouge 3/3
Improved Sinister Strike 2/2
Deflection 5/5
Precision 5/5
Riposte 1/1
Dual Wield Specialization 4/5
Blade Flurry 1/1
Sword Specialization 5/5

Kytrarewn · 05/19/06, 3:28 AM

It takes over 1600 AP for a Hemorrhage build to get better Damage/Energy than a combat sword build with aggression, given a 2.60 speed weapon. That's also only taking into account the damage/energy for special attacks, not the huge difference in white damage with Dual Wield Specialization, Precision, Sword Specialization, as well as the PvP opportunities with Riposte and Improved Kick (in an 18/33 or 17/34 build).

Given a 2.70 speed weapon (ie. Nightmare Blade), the damage/energy evens out at about 1300AP.

With a 2.80 (Empyrean Demolisher or Ancient Qiraji Ripper), damage/energy evens out at about 1050, and 2.90 it's about 875-900AP for the break-even point, but that's only found on the Rank 14 weapons, at least for Rogues (damn warriors and their Deathbringer), and Teebu's Blazing Longsword (good luck).

Hemo also adds, depending on how physically stacked your raid is, about 40-45DPS to the raid as a whole, which, if you're trying to justify your low place on the Damagemeters, can be added to "your" DPS over the course of the raid.

It's also useful on events like Sartura, Nefarian Phase One and Razorgore because of its stunlock potential.

If I were you, I'd just go to Cenarion Hold, get The Perfect Poison quest and pick up a Ravenholdt Slicer as an offhand just to tide you over until you get a better MH (ie. Vis'Kag or some BWL drops)., or a better offhand like Warblade of the Hakkari, then go for something like a 18/33/0 spec.

Good luck.

EJforumsaccount · 05/19/06, 3:38 AM

I'm 20/30. I have been since I had gear slightly worse than you up until the gear I'm in now (http://ctprofiles.net/941023). I think Hemo is a bad choice for you, it would only really work well if you had a weapon like AQ Ripper and some insane armour to make up for the damage you would lose from speccing out of the combat tree. Dual Wield spec with all of the other goodies you get in Combat are excellent for someone in your gear with relatively little +hit etc. Blade Flurry also helps you get up there on the DM too. ;)

I disagree with the comment about Adrenaline Rush. Combat Swords in no way gimps you in pvp. It's slightly more difficult to kill people, but it's really not all that much more difficult. You certainly don't need AR to kill a well geared target.

Apocalypse · 05/19/06, 4:02 AM

First of all I want to thank you for the feedback. I also wanted to point out that I am not looking for a PvP friendly build I want to maximize my PvE dps in MC and beyond hopefully.

As for The Perfect Poison quest unfortunately AQ hasn’t opened yet and is still a ways of considering the other guilds progression in BWL on my realm.

I don’t need to go Hemo I was just stating the fact that I haven’t tried it yet and Iwould like to try it out so if someone could show me what it is I would like to write it down for when I have 1000+ AP.

Also another tidbit if CHT drops would that be a viable off hand until I could get Vis’kag or Warblade of the Hakkari. Again thank you for your input.

Kir · 05/19/06, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

I have played 20/31 with swords but I am not sure that is the best PvE sword spec.

It is. Trust us. It's been discussed on here and elsewhere many times.

I toyed around with a hemo spec when I wasn't on to during the times my guild raids, and was just doing BG's. Overall, it's better for PVP. But, it's mainly just a different playstyle. It's THE stunlock build, as you've got a cheaper cheap shot, and can almost always build up to a 5pt kidney shot before cheap shot wears off. Plus, the stealth talents make it easier to get off cheap shots before being detected. However, stunlocking one person only helps you kill cloth wearers BETTER, something you should be able to do anyway. The classes we're not good against, you can beat 1v1 more often with it, but it takes longer to do so and generally they have reinforcements coming. The main advantage of a Hemo build is better crowd control (CC) abilities. Blind is ready more often, can do improved saps etc.. This takes a lot of situational awareness and reflexes to do well though.

With a combat swords build, you have slightly less CC ability, but you can do more damage to a target. Killing someone is the ultimate CC anyway. As long as your good with your footwork and can stay on top of them to maximize your melee damage, you'll take people down quicker.

20/31 is the best PvE sword build, but you might not understand why considering your initial post. Your generally just attempting to keep slice n dice up at all times. As you get better at gauging when it's going to run out relative to the mob's death, you'll start doing even more dps. example: two mobs are pulled, you do a SS then 1 pt SnD immediately. You build up to 3 pts just before it dies, but you know the other mob is probably going to die in less then 20 seconds, so instead of doing another SnD and 'wasting' 10 seconds or more of the SnD time, you Evisc, and then do another 1pt SnD on the 2nd mob.

If you pulled more mobs, or both mobs have a lot of HP. You may find your at 3pts when your first SnD wears off and the first mob isn't dead. Hit it again to keep SnD up and go to town on the next one. 40-60% of your damage is gonna come from white damage, so having SnD up is basically a 16-20% increase in damage. Wasting too much SnD buff time is wasted energy.

Blade Flurry in the right spots combined with adrenaline rush will really up your DPS too.

I put 3 points into Vile poisons instead of improved Eviscerate, as I rarely ever use Evisc in BWL/AQ now, and a large portion of the mobs are susceptible to poisons. Would rather our BWL clearing go faster then I do .5% more damage on the few boss mobs that are immune. But, for your guild's current progression, I'd suggest the opposite, as most of MC is immune to poisons. But, if you ARE pvping occasionally, I'd go 17/34 for either improved kick, improved evasion and/or points in improved sprint. That's not a bad compromise between pve and pvp, your only losing improved eviscerate, which you shouldn't be using too often except on prolonged melee boss fights that are immune to rupture (garr/ragnaros).

norg · 05/19/06, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by EJforumsaccount

I'm 20/30.

So pro you don't need to use that last point?

EJforumsaccount · 05/19/06, 4:31 AM

Eheh. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out.

20/31. :)

Kir · 05/19/06, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Apocalypse

First of all I want to thank you for the feedback. I also wanted to point out that I am not looking for a PvP friendly build I want to maximize my PvE dps in MC and beyond hopefully.

As for The Perfect Poison quest unfortunately AQ hasn’t opened yet and is still a ways of considering the other guilds progression in BWL on my realm.

I don’t need to go Hemo I was just stating the fact that I haven’t tried it yet and Iwould like to try it out so if someone could show me what it is I would like to write it down for when I have 1000+ AP.

Also another tidbit if CHT drops would that be a viable off hand until I could get Vis’kag or Warblade of the Hakkari. Again thank you for your input.

A totally PVP oriented hemo spec is 22/3/26 http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...05000003120010

Cold blood has nice synergy with preparation. Your looking to cheap shot, hemo to 4-5pts just before cheap shot wears off, then kidney shot. If they aren't practically dead (like warlocks or tanks) then Gouge/blind just before that 2nd kidney shot wears off, run away and run back in to get out of combat and re-stealth to cheap shot again before they can move (takes practice and perfect timing with gouge). If they are almost dead, you may have gotten a pt from ruthlessness and can do a 2-3 pt cold blooded evisc.

It's fun, but not a PvE spec for sure. I had to try it myself to believe it, as their are some different toys we get that seem like they could make up the difference in dps on certain fights if your just really good (improved rupture, which I had taken as a pve compromise) but they don't begin to compare to the combat talents available.

Also, CHT is not a bad offhand at all for your position considering the stats, assuming your not stepping on other rogues toes by taking it, as warblade or Vis'kag would be better. Warblade is good with brut blade because it's fast, so it procs sword spec more (Which uses mainhand damage to calculate) and has tons of atk power on it. Vis'kag is just beastly, but also even rarer.

edit: P.S. if your looking to try Hemo once your atk power is 1200+ raid buffed, with a 2.8 or 2.9 spd weapon (Ancient Qiraji Ripper for example), then take improved rupture. That's the main difference. Either take the points from Master of Deception or Improved Sap, depending on which you like more in PVP.