I know it's probably a topic with analysis a mile long, but I'd love thoughts as like many people I can't get much sense out of the official forums. I respecced to 0/21/30 about 6 months ago, just before we (VERY casual guild) started hitting MC. I'm regularly in the top 5 in dmg meters, but struggle to get much above #3 even if I'm going completely mad.

As I see it the alternatives are

a) 0/21/30 build "Cookie Cutter" - what I have now

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...50252510013150

I kinda like it because it gives me very high agility that gets me more RAP than Trueshot, and some additional PvE and PvP survivability.

b) 5/31/15 Improved AotH/Marksman/Surv

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00230400000000

possibly a bit too reliant on the procs of AoTH but I hear really good things about it and a guildmate who recently respecced to it was #1 in dmg meters after being 8-10 pre respec.

c) 0/31/20 Raid build

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00232500020000

pretty similar but no AoTH

d) 6/39/6 "I'm not going anywhere except MC for the next 12 months build"

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

I guess the question is, will I honestly notice a difference between these? I like the way my build plays at the moment, in terms of being able to contribute in 5 man grps as well as just raids. I'd love a little more dps and I don't really PvP but I'd like my traps and snares to be effective in case I need to perform any stupid heroics in a 5 man group!

In terms of equipment, in case anyone cares, I'm wearing a combo of GS (belt/bracers/boots) & DM crit gear, and packing a Mandokir's Sting in my ranged slot until I can get the bits and pieces for the Hunter epic quest.

Thoughts appreciated.

There is a huge breakdown of talent builds and shot cycles on the main boards here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...r&T=862216&P=1
(It hasn't been updated to take into account the 1.10 normalization changes, but the points it makes should still hold true.)

The 5/31/15 build is definitely the strongest raiding build currently in the game for a hunter. With Tier3 stuff a Lightning Reflexes Survival build might finally be getting close, but I haven't seen any numbers on that yet, and have been too busy to crunch them myself.

yep that was exactly my thinking really... I might go 0/31/20 though just because I'm slightly in love with the Survival tree now.

A pity to kiss goodbye to all that agi but I guess that numbers aren't everything really... From my spreadsheet (nabbed from sticky on official forums) it appears that a move from 0/21/30 to 5/31/15 will mean something like a 7.5% dps increase.

On a seperate note, including the effect of RWS, can someone confirm what the agility threshold where LR mean that 0/21/30 will start to out damage anything with 31 in MM with some v brief explanation if possible?

I've tried to work this out using the spreadsheet but it doesn't seem to take account of Aspect of the Hawk RAP bonus, or Trueshot Aura and thus seems to get a bit confusing trying to work out the optimization points.

Final question - does anyone have a full spreadsheet that does take account of this? If not I will try to add it to the one I have and re-host.

I am currently in love with the extra crit chance from my 0/21/30 build. I don't know how I stack up in a 40-man yet, but I do know that I completely dominated ZG last time I went.

I think on many fights 20/31/0 is more than 5/31/15. *Really*, those 15 points in Survival don't get you much in increased DPS, just some neat tricks (Deterrence/Survivalist/Improved Clip/etc).

I do so much pulling that I don't like speccing that way, but if you just want pure DPS I suspect that's as good as it gets. You may be *slightly* below 5/31/15 on some fights where you're fighting Monster Slaying/Humanoid Slaying usable targets and your pet doesn't live long to make up for the lost dps, but that's it.

Don't underestimate Imp. Aspect of the Hawk. It is a very noticeable increase in dps.

Here is an excellent Excel Spreadsheet for comparing gear/talent builds.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1#post1174583

(WoW forums are currently down for me, so just try back later if it doesn't work.)

Disagree, I do fine with 0/21/30, but then again, having a 'good' build is only half of doing good DPS.

I currently have a 0/21/30 spec, but I spent my points a little different: http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?VZqVohxoZGV0iMhhx
I saw 5/5 Efficiency being more important than Impr Concuss so I put the spare one in there.

When it comes to my talents in Surv, they used to be more PvP selfish with Deterrance and CA etc, but seeing as traps are actually used in PvE (Nef phase three Undead Zerg for example) I decided I to spend them there. It worked out nice because I was able to max out three talents.
I lost 2/3 in Surefooted at one point to spend them in Impr FD, but no other hunter in my guild had that so I thought, "What the hell".

I don't know if I will ever do a 31 skill MM spec. I hate the waste of talents. To have to choose 5/5 from:
Imprv Concuss
HM
Imprv Serpent
Imprv Arcane
Imprv Scorpid
seemed slightly daft seeing as 4 of our hunters have 5/5 HM anyway. Just seemed a waste of points. We have enough hunters per raid with TSA to benefit melee dps groups so I am allowed to get away with a 0/21/30.

I did for a short time try this spec, a 5/23/23: http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?mxZqVohxhZGV0V0Gh
The advantages of that build were getting three talents all at the same time you usually wouldn't be able to get.
3/3 Surefooted
3/3 Killer Instinct
3/3 Barrage
This build relied on me being in a TSA group though, and I missed being "uber" all by myself.

Did some maths (probably slightly inccorect) based on the raw stats Tier three with my other "Wishlist" items and parts of my spec gave me.
Turned out I was able to net 690 unbuffed Agility with 5/5 Lightening Reflexes. Pretty tidy.

10% more health isn't useful? Sure it doesn't give DPS, but staying alive longer helps, no matter what class you are.

Obviously you can do "fine" with all sorts of specs, but if you don't PvP much and your aim is PvE DPS, there is a clear "best" answer mathematically. My understanding is that for hunters, that's 5/31/15.

That statement should be with the sipulation that you have 9% from gear. If you did not, I would say having Surefooted (3% more to hit) is more important than improving your Aspect of the Hawk.