Upgrading PvP sets

XI- · 05/20/06, 12:48 PM

As a former rank 12, all I can say is.....

And where's the NPC to trade my bloodfang for bonescythe. Why would you bother to PvE. Time, effort, consumeables, etc. And you have to repeat it again every 3-4 months. Or you can just PvP once, and get free upgrades for the rest of your WoW days.

♦ Praetorian · 05/20/06, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by XI-

As a former rank 12, all I can say is.....

And where's the NPC to trade my bloodfang for bonescythe. Why would you bother to PvE. Time, effort, consumeables, etc. And you have to repeat it again every 3-4 months. Or you can just PvP once, and get free upgrades for the rest of your WoW days.

Personally I think a better model would've been to add all-new items rather than modifying the old ones so that former Rank 12-14s have to grind back up if they want the items. Of course, the whole PvP needs to be overhauled, but that's what 1.12 is for.

On the other hand, if you want to play the game to PvP, you shouldn't have to be a bleeding-edge raider to be competitive. The problem is really just that when it comes to pure DPS classes, there's no difference in the gear you want for one task versus the other.

One option would be to tone down the PvP items' base stats a bit but instead buff them by adding Equip: modifiers that increase damage against other player targets only.

ex-Hagakure · 05/20/06, 1:09 PM

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9...arcanum0vi.jpg <-- Blue set
http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magepvp3nc.jpg <-- Epic set

Personally I'm happy I'll rank up to 9 this week and just slowly hold rank / move up rank till 1.11 so I can buy upgrades over my current epic set from raid content.

XI- · 05/20/06, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Originally Posted by XI-

As a former rank 12, all I can say is.....

And where's the NPC to trade my bloodfang for bonescythe. Why would you bother to PvE. Time, effort, consumeables, etc. And you have to repeat it again every 3-4 months. Or you can just PvP once, and get free upgrades for the rest of your WoW days.

Personally I think a better model would've been to add all-new items rather than modifying the old ones so that former Rank 12-14s have to grind back up if they want the items. Of course, the whole PvP needs to be overhauled, but that's what 1.12 is for.

On the other hand, if you want to play the game to PvP, you shouldn't have to be a bleeding-edge raider to be competitive. The problem is really just that when it comes to pure DPS classes, there's no difference in the gear you want for one task versus the other.

One option would be to tone down the PvP items' base stats a bit but instead buff them by adding Equip: modifiers that increase damage against other player targets only.

The problem with Gurg, is PvP takes 0 skill. None. It's all about time commitment. Which they admitted, and said they wanted to overhaul the PvP system to make it more "skill-based". And then they upgrade the PvP sets, rewarding people for queueing up 12 hours a day. If they revised the PvP system, and then revised the sets, and made you regrind, I'd be happy with that. But to upgrade people who got their sets months ago, with free new items, in a system that's still a joke, is like giving a vendor who upgrades tier 1 from MC, to our tier 3 sets.

Drauk · 05/20/06, 1:13 PM

Is there 100% conirmation that PvP armor upgrades will be retroactive ? And yeah, this is a slap to all raiders.

♦ Praetorian · 05/20/06, 1:29 PM

Not 100% I don't think, but I can only assume that the way these were discovered was generating item links using the known item IDs, and the server will allow that since they're sitting there on a vendor and thus "exist" for purposes of the datamine-prevention tools. So if it's using known item IDs one would assume that the existing items were retroactively updated.

The weapons haven't changed, and the armor looks to me like ilvl ~75 across the board, which puts it right around tier 2, but people with AQ and obviously Naxx gear are going to be doing much better for themselves.

It's a thorny area, really. I dislike the idea of giving people free rewards for stuff they've done during their 2005 summer vacations. But on the other hand, PvP gear does need to improve and remain roughly one tier behind the cutting-edge raid gear. It shouldn't be better (and this stuff isn't better than Naxx gear), but the same items that used to be amazing when introduced last July or thereabouts are pretty lackluster 10 months later.

Drauk · 05/20/06, 1:33 PM

There was a lot of reasonable suggestions, about upgrading PvP armor via PvP quests. Yes, it still be easier than PvE raids, but at least it wont be free.

Digo · 05/20/06, 1:35 PM

Much agree with what Gurgthock said. While it seems unfair to us raiders to retroactively reward a few players like this, it will benefit a much larger number of future players who cannot raid for whatever reason, but can PVP. This is a pretty good way of leveling the playing field and appeasing people that (sort of) have a legitimate complaint. It's Blizzard's way of giving so-called casual* players access to epic loot.

*I still throw up my hands at people who play 40 hours a week and claim they are casual. I play my main maybe 15-20 hours a week as a "hardcore" raider.

Maledict · 05/20/06, 1:40 PM

Only lack lustre on realms that are killing C'Thun.

On my realm, where's there's only 3 horde guilds in total who have gotten past Razorgore, this new PvP gear is going to blow the water out of the gear that's currently available. We're an old realm as well, been up since day 1 of the euro launch.

I guess they were trapped in a corner over how to upgrade the armour sets and keep them competitive etc - it's just a shame they are being handed out for free ffectively. It's not like the old armour sets were necesserily that bad until you get some deep AQ gear.

There's also the issue for guilds that aren't cutting edge - guilds that are just starting to farm Nefarian, or learn BWL, or just venture into AQ, would actually be better served by the PvP ladder now, given the automatic upgrades available. Why raid now, when you can PvP, get the same gear and have it upgraded in 6 months time?

It's a thorny issue, and I look forward to seeing what they do to the PvP system in 1.12 and BC.

Asmo · 05/20/06, 1:41 PM

New r14 weapons. Which word is you do need to regrind to 14 to buy.

♦ Praetorian · 05/20/06, 1:48 PM

Yeah, brand new items added means you must be rank 14 to buy, so only new rank 14s can get them. If they do the same with PvP armor, it wouldn't be nearly so bad. There is definitely something very distasteful about someone who used to be a Marshal in August 2005 and is now a Sergeant suddenly getting free upgrades across the board.

Beeker · 05/20/06, 1:50 PM

This might impact Elitist Jerks because you're always on the bleeding edge of new content. Majority of the PvE guilds across the board just open a guidebook for each fight and use proven strategies. After the guilds manage the fight it's just basically punching the loot clock once a week. If a guild overtakes you as best guild on the server it doesn't really matter, you'll get the items one way or another.

If a PvP group overtakes my group I'd lose months of work forever. Add into this fact that PvP teams are self destructive, once a person hits their desired rank they generally stop PvPing except for a few games here and there. PvPers are getting rewarded for the extra competition and chance of losing all their work. There might be servers where everything is predecided and there might be servers where competition is so cutt throat that Standing 1 would be three million CP. You can't draw a line across the entire game like you can with PvE. Each server has a different amounts of geared people and stronger and weaker competition.

I doubt this is gonna be something PvE'ers and PvP'ers will EVER see eye-to-eye on. PvE'ers think that Pvpers are having an enjoyable time doing their grind and PvPers believe PvE'ers are lazy for just doing an instance for 5 hours a day.

Thrillho · 05/20/06, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beeker

I doubt this is gonna be something PvE'ers and PvP'ers will EVER see eye-to-eye on. PvE'ers think that Pvpers are having an enjoyable time doing their grind and PvPers believe PvE'ers are lazy for just doing an instance for 5 hours a day.

uhhh, I don't think anybody anywhere thinks the current honor system is in any way, shape, or form, 'enjoyable time'

♦ Praetorian · 05/20/06, 1:56 PM

Yeah, it's a valid point that I'd meant to add in my reply to Xi.

Yes, trailblazing new content requires skillful play. I don't have my Stormcaller Hauberk because I play a lot -- I have it because I play well, and the 39 people alongside me do as well, and we're good at developing and executing strategies.

But in terms of it being "hard" to get PvE epics, tell me you've never seen a shitty, awful player who has a lot of tier 2 pieces. Now say it with a straight face. If I were a new player on a new server who could play 6pm-midnight all weekdays and noon-2am all weekends if needed, I could join a raid guild pretty easily. Maybe not the best raid guild on the server. But I could show up to every raid, do my simple job, get DKP quickly, and get an epic every other week on average. I'll never see a server first, much less a world first, and some things like world spawns may be off-limits to me, but just by logging on every day I'll get my loot. Don't tell me that it's particularly "hard" to assemble a set of ilvl 70+ epics via PvE content if you are a very active player. That's just a disingenuous argument.

Beeker · 05/20/06, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Thrillho

Originally Posted by Beeker

I doubt this is gonna be something PvE'ers and PvP'ers will EVER see eye-to-eye on. PvE'ers think that Pvpers are having an enjoyable time doing their grind and PvPers believe PvE'ers are lazy for just doing an instance for 5 hours a day.

uhhh, I don't think anybody anywhere thinks the current honor system is in any way, shape, or form, 'enjoyable time'

I guess it might be a Lightning's Blade exclusive thing, but then again we're home to idiots like Ming.